quote: Original post by Way Walker
I suppose I should ask, are you looking only at the differences between what different religions say are Good and Evil, or are you looking at what different religions say is True? I''ll agree, morality between religions is, on the whole, pretty similar (there are important differences, but I suppose you''d see them as splitting hairs)

i was looking at the Good and Evil aspects, since someone mentioned the "christian values" in KotOR. as far as Truth goes, i know that each religion has it''s own wacky explanation of everything, and they don''t all match up as well as the basic ideals they lead to.

quote: Yes, I heard (or, rather, read) you the first time. Would you like me to repeat what I said, as well?

sorry i quoted what you said, and while it was a nice explanation, i don''t think it refuted my point (hence my repeating myself). it ranks right up there with a vegetarian pointing out that they ate tofu in a movie, so the movie has "vegetarian values".

quote: No more presumptuous than my professor evaluating theories on the pumping of masers in evolved stars.

ok

quote: So you''ve never played a great game, seen a great movie, read a great book, heard a great song, viewed a sunset from the perfect location, or anything of the sort and wanted to tell others to play/see/read/hear/view it, as well?

oh no, that has happened. when it does, i tell them the name of the game or movie or book, and they can get a copy (or borrow mine if i really like them), and see for themselves. the joy you are sharing is abstract and intangible, and IMHO imaginary.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Grasping at straws? Not really, but since you mentioned that material already, i think you''re fighting a strawman here -- no one but you said it''s *important* to see christian elements...

it happens too often for it to not be important to someone or other. if it weren''t important, people wouldn''t be taking such huge leaps of logic to show these alleged "christian elements" in various media.

quote: no one said anything about everyone sharing the same religion. And no one said christians invented the concept of redemption. Whatever you''re trying to argue here, it''s misplaced.

i was just pointing out that someone said something that i consider incorrect, and why. when people point to the redemption in a story as a "chrsitian element", they are implying that redemption a a solely christian idea (otherwise it wouldn''t be a "christian element" as they claim). that''s all, no big deal...

quote: I don''t know if i can make my point more clear, but i''ll try. Wasn''t saying the KotOR was *designed* or *intended* as ''christian game'' or anything equally silly. But because it uses element which are common in this belief system, it can be used as example *how* such ''religious'' concepts can be used in a game not only without making it feel overly ''preachy'' but actually resulting in something that''s popular and entertaining.

but the listed elements which are common with that belief system are common to many belief systems, including some which are not religious at all. they could just as well be considered muslim elements, or socially-conscious-athiest elements. that is my only point; there is nothing especially "christian" about these things, and claiming so is wrong.

First off, Like I''ve said before I''m a Christian. Second, I don''t see star wars as Christian in the least bit. Actually that quote you had from the game(somewhere above) directly goes AGAINST christian beliefs. It implies that you are redeemed by good deeds. Thirdly, I''ve never seen star wars as a christian anything, more like a new age/mystic type thing(sorta like the matrix, also don''t flame me if I got the whole reference to new age/mystic wrong).

quote: Original post by krez
i was looking at the Good and Evil aspects, since someone mentioned the "christian values" in KotOR. as far as Truth goes, i know that each religion has it''s own wacky explanation of everything, and they don''t all match up as well as the basic ideals they lead to.

If you think religious explanations of everything are wacky, you should check out what physicists have come up with! (coming from a physics major) Really, "true" and "wacky" are nearly orthogonal aspects of an explanation. You''re not being objective However, I will concede that morality was more relevant to the topic at hand and that what is Good and Evil is nearly the same on the more visible issues.

quote:
sorry i quoted what you said, and while it was a nice explanation, i don''t think it refuted my point (hence my repeating myself). it ranks right up there with a vegetarian pointing out that they ate tofu in a movie, so the movie has "vegetarian values".

This is somewhat amusing If you look back, you will see that you asked (perhaps somewhat rhetorically) "why is it so important to see "christian elements" in anything and everything?" and my reply started with "I can think of two explanations ". (emphasis added) Could you point out where in that post I was trying to refute any point of yours? I guess I''m kind of glad you found it a "nice explanation ". (emphasis added)

quote:
oh no, that has happened. when it does, i tell them the name of the game or movie or book, and they can get a copy (or borrow mine if i really like them), and see for themselves. the joy you are sharing is abstract and intangible, and IMHO imaginary.

Um... since when was joy, whether mine or anyone elses, something concrete? And, really, it''s either imaginary or it''s not. Your opinion doesn''t have much to do with that. Or was that just a way to "soften the blow"? So, what makes my joy more abstract, intangible, and imaginary than yours? Because in your opinion the cause for it doesn''t exist?

Any way, my post wasn''t meant to be an argument for Christianity, it was meant to answer your question. Why is it so important to turn anything and everything mentioning Christianity into an argument? (Please don''t answer, asked for ironic effect only)

quote:

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
Grasping at straws? Not really, but since you mentioned that material already, i think you''re fighting a strawman here -- no one but you said it''s *important* to see christian elements...

it happens too often for it to not be important to someone or other. if it weren''t important, people wouldn''t be taking such huge leaps of logic to show these alleged "christian elements" in various media.

Now who''s grasping at straws? Or maybe I should soften that position by saying "I consider that grasping at straws".

quote:

quote: no one said anything about everyone sharing the same religion. And no one said christians invented the concept of redemption. Whatever you''re trying to argue here, it''s misplaced.

i was just pointing out that someone said something that i consider incorrect, and why. when people point to the redemption in a story as a "chrsitian element", they are implying that redemption a a solely christian idea (otherwise it wouldn''t be a "christian element" as they claim). that''s all, no big deal...

But if there''s enough "Christian elements" it would be reasonable to remove the quotes and consider the redemption to be a Christian element. I will agree that redemption in Star Wars has little to do with Christian redemption. Nor does Christianity have a monopoly on the concept of redemption (however, its method of redemption seems to be unique).

quote:

quote: I don''t know if i can make my point more clear, but i''ll try. Wasn''t saying the KotOR was *designed* or *intended* as ''christian game'' or anything equally silly. But because it uses element which are common in this belief system, it can be used as example *how* such ''religious'' concepts can be used in a game not only without making it feel overly ''preachy'' but actually resulting in something that''s popular and entertaining.

but the listed elements which are common with that belief system are common to many belief systems, including some which are not religious at all. they could just as well be considered muslim elements, or socially-conscious-athiest elements. that is my only point; there is nothing especially "christian" about these things, and claiming so is wrong.

I don''t think the claim was otherwise. The claim to me seemed much more like "If George Lucas had intended these as Christian (Feel free to place whatever religion you want there, it doesn''t change the argument) elements, it''d be a good example of how to incorporate Christian (But here just Christian because that''s the topic of the thread) elements into a game".

I think this thread has diverged from the original intention, as for the topic:

you could show religius believes by means of redemption, and forgivenes, for example you could take as a main character a crusader, he has seen his share of blood shed, is beign part of a new one, lately he have begun to feel some sense of guilt, some internal struggle between how The Church (TM) is acting and how he believes it should. He could be attacked by the religious leaders in order to silence him until in the end when he finally by some super heroic/christian act show how he has become a true christian.

we all know about how corrupt the catolic church became during the medieval times, you could take a character from that time, throw some internal problems, and a struggle to see the thruth. Now you could both show some cristhian values and show people that religius corruptions is not an integral part of the religion but of the people on it.


now i''m going a little off topic, first this is not a religius board if you want to dis religions go somewhere else, as a matter of fact i''m a atheist, i know a lot about christianity and my knowledge about it and other religions took me away from it and any other one, but i''m not gonna post anything about it here since this is not the correct forum for that

hewhay: yeah, sorry

quote: Original post by hewhay
I think this thread has diverged from the original intention

Sorry about that.

I thought Vampire the Masquerade was interesting, in the way it made the main character a christian. If you''ve not played it, you play a soldier who is injured in the crusades, he''s very much a christian. If I recall correctly, after he has recovered from his injury, he is asked by a local priest to rid the area of some vampires/demons.

I thought the fact he was christian added a lot of depth to the character and the game, since he ends up being turned into a vampire. I thought this added interest to the character, due to the conflict between the christian man he once was, and the vampire he has now become.

I''m not sure how christians would view this though.

I really like mmorpgs and also plain rpgs and i am learning to program in c and c++ right now. i have played starwars galaxies also. anyway, i dont know how you could put a christian game into mmorpg, but you could make it so that if the player is chritian, they can play the game so that it shows. many mmorpgs are based around kill other players and get better, i hate that. But if you could make it so that you didnt have to be a hack-eveyone-in-your-way character, and could let those who dont kill everyone to be able to be as powerful in the game by other methods

I''m not sure why you''d want to make a game "christian," or even what that involves. Mainly, what it involves. If you''re looking for a christian theme, my advice would be to throw in religious elements. Symbolism and the likes, for instance.

One idea would involve, say, having your game world centered around the christian faith. For instance, you''d have people who believe in god as a mainstream religion, lots of churches, etc..

An other idea would be to have symbolism. Have a lot of crosses in strategic places, churches that play a certain part in your game, etc.. You could have dungeons such as a monastary taken over by the undead (cliché but it works well) or something of the sort.

If you meant making it "christian" as in making it a game christians would associate with, well, don''t alienate the non-christian population too much. Unless you want them to lose interest in your game.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Conflict: make it a religious war, people get to chose between science and technology or religion. Or make 2 or 3 different religions where each are trying to murder off the others (non belivers).

Where does that leav people like me who believe that science and faith are compatible?

As far as the Christian elements, reward charity, punish the use of magic and murder (as opposed to killing, which is acceptable for war and self defense).

In the game I''m making the mages will be significantly weak, and there will be no mana. Spells will deduct from HP, with no cure spells. There will be herbal potions to restore HP, however. Also, I''m toying around with the notion of the entire party taking a hit if it contains any mages.

Of course, with that idea it would have to be done to where the "tanks" can stand alone or a group of tanks could do as well as a group with an offensive mage and a healing/defensive mage.