I am a Christian and at one time I was working on a Christian game. The major problem I began running into was the story/play/excitement of the game rather than the technical side. With a Christian game you have several issues that are hard to address.

If it''s an action game, you can''t really have the hero(if he/she is a Christian) go around killing people.

It''s hard to make a strategy game based on old testament stuff for the same reason I don''t like making history games... The outcome is already written.

If God is on the protagonist'' side it''s kinda hard for him to show him losing.

I''m sure something could be made, the only ideas that I could think of is spiritual warfare stuff but that is still hard to make a fun game about stuff like that. For other stuff, how can you have a(directly) "Christian" game if the protagonist is going to be a christian? I mean, what are Christians suppose to do? Basically we worship God, do our best to do what he wants us to do, witness to others, and try to be a light in a dark world, and those are things that are hard/close to impossible to make a fun game about(too realistic, normally games are used to escape from reality). A game about goin around praying for people? Why not just go out and pray for them?

quote: Original post by cilcoder
I am a Christian and at one time I was working on a Christian game. The major problem I began running into was the story/play/excitement of the game rather than the technical side. With a Christian game you have several issues that are hard to address.

If it''s an action game, you can''t really have the hero(if he/she is a Christian) go around killing people.

It''s hard to make a strategy game based on old testament stuff for the same reason I don''t like making history games... The outcome is already written.

If God is on the protagonist'' side it''s kinda hard for him to show him losing.

I''m sure something could be made, the only ideas that I could think of is spiritual warfare stuff but that is still hard to make a fun game about stuff like that. For other stuff, how can you have a(directly) "Christian" game if the protagonist is going to be a christian? I mean, what are Christians suppose to do? Basically we worship God, do our best to do what he wants us to do, witness to others, and try to be a light in a dark world, and those are things that are hard/close to impossible to make a fun game about(too realistic, normally games are used to escape from reality). A game about goin around praying for people? Why not just go out and pray for them?

I think all of these (except the old testament/historical issue) go away if you stop trying to make a "Christian game" and start trying to make a game "about a Christian", or even "about someone who meets a Christian" or something like that. For an example of the second, have you ever seen Ben Hur? The impression I get is that it''s much more about Jesus than it is about the "main character".

As for the killing, remember, Christians aren''t perfect, just forgiven. Jesus hung out with a lot of scum, and a lot of the New Testament of the Bible was written by Paul, who, before he became known as "Paul, the apostle", was not a nice guy. Or King David from the Old Testament. He saw Uriah''s wife taking a bath, liked what he saw, and sent Uriah to the front lines of war to die so that he could sleep with her. Shame on you, David.

For losing with God on your side, there are two approaches. One, who says God is on your side? The book of Jonah is all about God kicking Jonah into shape. Two, many Christians have died in war with many people praying for their safety, however, I would not say that God was not on their side.

For the last, you seem to be under the impression that all Christians must join the clergy. What happened to "Whatever you do, do it to the glory of God"? Am I a poor Christian because I spend some moments of my life neither witnessing nor in prayer? (Not that I claim to be a saint, but I hardly believe my not being cannonized has anything to do with the fact that I do other things than pray and witness)

quote:
I think all of these (except the old testament/historical issue) go away if you stop trying to make a "Christian game" and start trying to make a game "about a Christian", or even "about someone who meets a Christian" or something like that. For an example of the second, have you ever seen Ben Hur? The impression I get is that it''s much more about Jesus than it is about the "main character".

True.

quote:
As for the killing, remember, Christians aren''t perfect, just forgiven. Jesus hung out with a lot of scum, and a lot of the New Testament of the Bible was written by Paul, who, before he became known as "Paul, the apostle", was not a nice guy. Or King David from the Old Testament. He saw Uriah''s wife taking a bath, liked what he saw, and sent Uriah to the front lines of war to die so that he could sleep with her. Shame on you, David.

Yeah, but it''s probably not the best idea to make a game where you go around killing everbody while trying to be christian game at the same time. :-) Althought if it was about a Christian or someone who has yet to be a Christian then it is possible that it would be okay(plus I''m not really someone that should be saying what is/isn''t okay)

quote:
For losing with God on your side, there are two approaches. One, who says God is on your side? The book of Jonah is all about God kicking Jonah into shape. Two, many Christians have died in war with many people praying for their safety, however, I would not say that God was not on their side.

True

quote:
For the last, you seem to be under the impression that all Christians must join the clergy. What happened to "Whatever you do, do it to the glory of God"? Am I a poor Christian because I spend some moments of my life neither witnessing nor in prayer? (Not that I claim to be a saint, but I hardly believe my not being cannonized has anything to do with the fact that I do other things than pray and witness)

What I was saying by "A game about goin around praying for people? Why not just go out and pray for them?" is that going around playing a video a game about praying for people wouldn''t help anybody. You could just go out and pray that people be healed, etc... You don''t have to be a member of the "clergy" to do that. I didn''t say that you had to spend all your moments in prayer or whatever... I wasn''t trying to imply that. I was just pointing out the problems with makinga "Christian" game. Which normally includes a super christian/hero type person. I wasn''t trying to say anything for or against a game that includes a normal person or even a preacher or anything. Just a lot of games you see, you are presented with someone going around picking up Bibles and zapping people with the sword of the spirit, etc.. A more realistic game might be more interesting/fun.

I''m sorry if my post gave the wrong impression about what I am/was trying to say.

quote: Original post by cilcoder
What I was saying by "A game about goin around praying for people? Why not just go out and pray for them?" is that going around playing a video a game about praying for people wouldn''t help anybody. You could just go out and pray that people be healed, etc... You don''t have to be a member of the "clergy" to do that. I didn''t say that you had to spend all your moments in prayer or whatever... I wasn''t trying to imply that. I was just pointing out the problems with makinga "Christian" game. Which normally includes a super christian/hero type person. I wasn''t trying to say anything for or against a game that includes a normal person or even a preacher or anything. Just a lot of games you see, you are presented with someone going around picking up Bibles and zapping people with the sword of the spirit, etc.. A more realistic game might be more interesting/fun.

I''m sorry if my post gave the wrong impression about what I am/was trying to say.

Ah, I see now, sorry about that. Yeah, when I think of "Christian game" the first thing that comes to my mind are those NES games they sold in Christian bookstores, where you were a wiseman collecting gold/I-don''t-want-to-even-attempt-spelling-the-other-two-gifts or Moses zapping things with the Word. Pretty horrid stuff (On a level with TBN and the 700 Club)

quote: Original post by krez
it''s based on Star Wars ...

Yeah; doesn''t change fact it revolves around the values quite a few religions out there try to promote, does it...

Guess the view will depend on if "christian elements" in question are interpreted as the actual belief system, or the window dressing with crosses''n''stuff.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote: Original post by krez
it's based on Star Wars ...

Yeah; doesn't change fact it revolves around the values quite a few religions out there try to promote, does it...

grasping at straws... why is it so important to see "christian elements" in anything and everything? not everyone shares the same religion, and chrsitians did not invent the concept of redemption.

[edited by - krez on March 1, 2004 5:01:22 PM]

quote: Original post by krez

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote: Original post by krez
it''s based on Star Wars ...

Yeah; doesn''t change fact it revolves around the values quite a few religions out there try to promote, does it...

grasping at straws... why is it so important to see "christian elements" in anything and everything? not everyone shares the same religion, and chrsitians did not invent the concept of redemption.

To the AP:
Christian values are distinct from what "quite a few religions out there try to promote". I dislike when people confuse "agrees in some respect with nearly everything else" with "is essentially the same as everything else".

To krez:
I can think of two explanations. I''m not very eloquent, and am probably not the best representative of the Christian perspective, so please bare with my stumbling words.

The first is the idea that everything Good is in some sense a reflection of God, and that everything Bad is the perversion of something Good. Thus, seeing the "Christian elements" in something not Christian, is seeing what Good there is in that something. To sort of give an idea, CS Lewis said something along the lines of "As a Christian, you don''t have to say that all other religions are completely wrong. You can say that they have this and this bit right, and that and that bit wrong."

The second is we like to share this great Joy we have found with others. To put it in more gamedev.net perspectives, suppose you find some small name game that you really enjoy. There''s some excitement in finding that others have also found this game and enjoy it. Same with Linux distros (note the comraderie among people whose only connection is the distro they use) or cult films.

For the non-Christians, I suppose it''s a sort of backlash against the Christian propaganda found in so many places. I experience this somewhat. If you''re familiar with TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network), you''ll probably agree with me that everything they do is at least two of sugary sweet, corny, or misinformed. If I see something that even hints of being like TBN, I almost immediately put it under the same label as TBN.

quote: Original post by Way Walker
Christian values are distinct from what "quite a few religions out there try to promote". I dislike when people confuse "agrees in some respect with nearly everything else" with "is essentially the same as everything else".

from the point of view that doesn''t subscribe to any of the compared religions, they do not seem so very distinct. many religions have an idea of good and evil, and values that are similar. you''re not being objective.

quote: The first is the idea that everything Good is in some sense a reflection of God, and that everything Bad is the perversion of something Good. Thus, seeing the "Christian elements" in something not Christian, is seeing what Good there is in that something.

i consider that grasping at straws, if the thing in question was actually written without christian ideals in mind. we''d have to ask george lucas to be sure, but to be honest i never noticed anything especially christian in any Star Wars stuff. the whole "help others and fight evil" thing concerns all Good Guys, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof).

quote: To sort of give an idea, CS Lewis said something along the lines of "As a Christian, you don''t have to say that all other religions are completely wrong. You can say that they have this and this bit right, and that and that bit wrong."

that''s pretty presumptious of him i think, although he was a great author.

quote: The second is we like to share this great Joy we have found with others.

well, thanks, i guess.

quote: Original post by krez

quote: Original post by Way Walker
Christian values are distinct from what "quite a few religions out there try to promote". I dislike when people confuse "agrees in some respect with nearly everything else" with "is essentially the same as everything else".

from the point of view that doesn''t subscribe to any of the compared religions, they do not seem so very distinct. many religions have an idea of good and evil, and values that are similar. you''re not being objective.

I suppose I should ask, are you looking only at the differences between what different religions say are Good and Evil, or are you looking at what different religions say is True? I''ll agree, morality between religions is, on the whole, pretty similar (there are important differences, but I suppose you''d see them as splitting hairs)

quote:

quote: The first is the idea that everything Good is in some sense a reflection of God, and that everything Bad is the perversion of something Good. Thus, seeing the "Christian elements" in something not Christian, is seeing what Good there is in that something.

i consider that grasping at straws, if the thing in question was actually written without christian ideals in mind. we''d have to ask george lucas to be sure, but to be honest i never noticed anything especially christian in any Star Wars stuff. the whole "help others and fight evil" thing concerns all Good Guys, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof).

Yes, I heard (or, rather, read) you the first time. Would you like me to repeat what I said, as well?

quote:

quote: To sort of give an idea, CS Lewis said something along the lines of "As a Christian, you don''t have to say that all other religions are completely wrong. You can say that they have this and this bit right, and that and that bit wrong."

that''s pretty presumptious of him i think, although he was a great author.

No more presumptuous than my professor evaluating theories on the pumping of masers in evolved stars.

quote:

quote: The second is we like to share this great Joy we have found with others.

well, thanks, i guess.

So you''ve never played a great game, seen a great movie, read a great book, heard a great song, viewed a sunset from the perfect location, or anything of the sort and wanted to tell others to play/see/read/hear/view it, as well? I probably feel as sorry for you as you do for me

quote: Original post by krez
grasping at straws... why is it so important to see "christian elements" in anything and everything? not everyone shares the same religion, and chrsitians did not invent the concept of redemption.

Grasping at straws? Not really, but since you mentioned that material already, i think you''re fighting a strawman here -- no one but you said it''s *important* to see christian elements... no one said anything about everyone sharing the same religion. And no one said christians invented the concept of redemption. Whatever you''re trying to argue here, it''s misplaced.

I don''t know if i can make my point more clear, but i''ll try. Wasn''t saying the KotOR was *designed* or *intended* as ''christian game'' or anything equally silly. But because it uses element which are common in this belief system, it can be used as example *how* such ''religious'' concepts can be used in a game not only without making it feel overly ''preachy'' but actually resulting in something that''s popular and entertaining.