I thought it was very entertaining; I just about busted a gut reading half the post

There were "concerns" that young white males wouldn''t want to play an aussie female lead....

How about a half native-american, half african-american transsexual who''s adopted and raised by anglo-saxton''s from the 15th century ala Bill&Ted style. All (s)he has is shis peace-pipe, which gives shim the temporary ability to fly, see through walls, and invincibility (when smoked obviously) and a special bitch-slap-peace-pipe attack which (s)he''ll use to knock all the little white guys silly that are trying to oppress shim and take shis land. We can have lingerie power-ups, and a little bad-ass squirrel as a companion. We''ll call it "Trans-Time Freedom Warriors".

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I''m native american, yet I don''t practice the native american religion, that is culture not race.

Religion is religion. Culture is culture. Know the difference.

quote: Black males commit more crime on average that white males of the same age

Show me figures. We are led (by mainstream media) to believe that blacks lead every negative statistical category. The common belief is that black women are the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients, and all those 60 minutes specials on welfare reforms always present single black mothers who drink and get high most of the time. I wont tell you the actual figures; go look them up yourself.

quote: Original post by TANSTAAFL
On a related note, though... how about homosexual and/or bisexual characters?

I see little relation, and actually (consistently) find that offensive. Like being black is a "persuasion" or an "orientation" - something discovered as we attained maturity. I was born black - dark skin, nappy haird, brown eyes - and I can''t change that. I can''t, at the age of 27, realize that "I''m white!" leave my wife and start a new life. While the question of sexual orientation is an interesting one (that game that had a lesbian lead stirred a little bit of a furor), I don''t see it as particularly related.

In fact, I find it offensive that being black is classified along with being gay - "minorities." So, what if I''m black and gay? Then I''m a "double minority"? I also find it offensive (and this is why I don''t support them) that so-called "activist" groups lump us together, like my rights are violated the same way a gay white person''s are. Shit like dat pisses the fuck outta me.

Y''all best not perpetrate dat ''round here, ya heard?

Nobody was saying that being gay and being black was the same thing. It was just stated that they faced the same discrimination by people. An example for that kind of discrimination can be seen in your last post.

Edited by - Darkor on October 14, 2001 4:28:21 AM

This whole topic is a bad one. While the topic and question of the orignial poster of this message is legit. Tread is more like a racial one now.


--Quote from Oluseyi:
"In fact, I find it offensive that being black is classified along with being gay - "minorities." So, what if I'm black and gay? Then I'm a "double minority"? I also find it offensive (and this is why I don't support them) that so-called "activist" groups lump us together, like my rights are violated the same way a gay white person's are. Shit like dat pisses the fuck outta me."


Why, "shit like dat pisses the fuck outta me." Oluseyi, you presonally are taking this too much to heart. Your 27, and yet your clamorous remarks about being "lumped" together with other groups, are childish. Yes, it is sad to a degree, a very slight one to me, that they do that. There are /always/ expections.

----Quote again from Oluseyi:
"Show me figures. We are led (by mainstream media) to believe that blacks lead every negative statistical category. The common belief is that black women are the overwhelming majority of welfare recipients, and all those 60 minutes specials on welfare reforms always present single black mothers who drink and get high most of the time. I wont tell you the actual figures; go look them up yourself."


Show you figures? If someone actually went out and documented that information, what would happen to them? Most likely they would be called racists for even wanting to do that. Your thoughts about 60 minutes and showing black women is utter muck. You're seeing only what you want to see.


Yet another one:
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original post by TANSTAAFL
On a related note, though... how about homosexual and/or bisexual characters?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I see little relation, and actually (consistently) find that offensive."


I see plenty of relation personally. View it as, WHY NOT? If you don't like the main character to be ************* then don't play.


Here is some serious food for thought. African-Americans have a month to reflect on their History. (Black History Month) if there was such as thing like "White History Month" there will be talks about racism. BET (Black Entertainment Television) over here on the East Coast, plays purely African American music videos, correct me if I'm wrong, but I never seen a non-African-American/Hispanic music video on that station. In these music videos they bash plenty of times on the "white" race. Yet this is not subjected as racism and is accepted now. I find it offensive, I'm sure a few others do also , but nothing will happen. yet if you see an African-American racial comment in a non-African American music video, they better get ready for law suits.

All in all, you need to stop your bitching.


Also for the original poster of the thread, why wouldn't it be possible? If you want it, make it. You're the developer(I think).


Edited by - David_Kay on October 14, 2001 5:12:22 AM

About the welfare thing. I''m not positive but I think I heard that(at least here in Arkansas) more white females are on welfare then black females. However I tend to disagree with those who look down on people on welfare. Some do take advantage of the system, but there are many who genuinely need the help welfare can provide them. Sorry I went off topic.

I don''t quite agree with you there on the gay/black relationship thing Oluseyi.

Like you said, you were born black and had no choice in the matter. I happen to think that homosexuals also had no choice in the matter. I don''t think gay people sit up one day and wonder, "gosh, that I guy I saw yesterday was hot...I better get his number". It''s something that just happens, and they shouldn''t be blamed for it anymore than you should be blamed for the color of your skin.

I also think it''s important to address the difference between making generalizations about a race\profession\countries\etc. and holding those generalizations to the individual. That is stereotyping and is in my opinion the basis of prejudice and some forms of rascism. I think that prejudice and rascism only applies when a person thinks that of EVERY constituent member of a class to every individual. For example, let''s say someone feels that Jews are money grubbers or tight with money. If that''s all the person thought, I would not consider that racism or prejudice. However, if he met a Jewish person, and didn''t want to borrow money because of that, then it becomes racist. Humans MUST make certain generalizations both good and bad. It becomes a racial/prejudiced thing when the view on the whole is applied the individual. I''m part filipino, and I happen to think most filipinos in general are very rude when it comes to being punctual, but that doesn''t mean I think all filipinos are chronically late (my best friend is as punctual as me). Statistically, 95% of serial killers are white males, does that mean that there can''t be non-white male serial killers? The truth is that all races\cultures have things about them that are more or less indicative of their thought patterns and behaviors. If this wasn''t true, there would be no reason at all to study anthropology or sociology. The key is in not passing the generalizations of a group and projecting it on to individuals.

One thing that I DO think can be considered prejudicial based on behaviour is being overweight. Unless you are in the 10% of people that have a clinical reason for being overweight, there really is no excuse other than eating to excess and not working out. These are behaviour patterns that we have control over. I hear fat people complaining about being discriminated, but to be brutally honest, I don''t have much sympathy for the complainers.

I used to be chubby myself, but I started working out and watched what I ate. When some people I knew saw me lose weight, they wanted to know how I did it. I told them what I did, and supported their weight loss efforts (I will NEVER make fun of a fat person working out). But I can''t stand these whiners complaining about how people are discriminating against them because they are obese.

I have news for these people, eat less and work out. If you are obese it''s a sign that you don''t have the discipline and willpower to control yourself (and if you complain, obviously you want people to accept you for who you are...there will be, but don''t expect EVERYONE to). Gluttony is actually a sin according to some people. I can''t look at a black person and think..."oh he''s probably some lazy slacker that doesn''t want to work". I could look at an obese person and at least tell myself that the person has very little willpower and control.

Does that make me prejudiced against fat people? Just the whiners. If an overweight person asked me how to lose weight, that shows me that they are taking responsibility for their behavior, not shirking it off like the whiners. If a fat person is comfortable with their size, more power to them as long as they don''t complain about it. Not everyone feels that they have to be fit and trim, although I do think there''s health risks to it of course.

So, how come so few protagonists in games have been obese or ugly? One could say the same thing. We don''t want to relate to someone like that deep down (even if we CAN relate...we''d rather relate to the good-looking hero). Is that discrimination? I wouldn''t say discrimination so far as I''d say that it was a projection of what we wish we were like.

Looks like I missed out on the fun parts of this discussion...

I feel like I''m preaching to you all but please bear with me.

What are we talking about? I want a good answer to this question, because I think everyone here has in some way the same opinion, but we''re arguing against hope that the nuance of a personal view on a tremendously expansive topic is what matters.

The undying pattern appears to be that everyone has a personal experience (possibly even a lifetime of experience) that relates to prejudice and discrimination, and yet there is agreement that in an ideal setting there would not be a predominance of White/Asian lead characters (or even supporting characters) in video games.

I think that we should accept that we have very little understanding of the entirety of this topic, as is demonstrated by the misunderstanding of Gay people presented by Dauntless and Oluseyi, I have no idea whether either of you are right but I don''t think you really do either. Even though this may seem to be an insult to you personally, I think that everyone here should stick to what they know. More importantly, keep it game-design related, because that''s what we''re here to discuss.

Sorry about the long post


- God created the world in seven days? I think I can one-up him!

Symphonic

Read my post a little more carefully before you accuse me of being biased against gays. I said that gays did not have any direction or control over their sexual preference, therefore they should not be blamed for it. I have nothing against them personally unless they hit on me even after I tell them I''m straight...in which case they are just being rude and impolite.

Otherwise, how do gays insult me? And if you also read a little more carefully into my post, you''ll find out I ask why don''t people relate to protagonists that aren''t like ourselves?

So please, read more carefully before making accusations.

Perhaps I need to clarify my positions for those who didn''t clearly understand what I said.

Homosexuality: whether you are born with your sexual orientation or not, it doesn''t become an issue until you (basically) attain puberty - when you begin to make forays into non-platonic interaction. Ethnicity, OTOH, is an issue from birth. Kids get teased and bullied in preschool for being (visibly) different. That''s my point, and that''s my irritation: I can''t tell from looking at you whether you''re gay (if I can, then you''re flaunting it), but I can tell if you''re black.

[potentially offensive]
There is the frequent accusation that "everything''s a race issue" for black people. The truth is, everything''s a race issue - and not just for black people. Your first impression of a black person you see - based on his skin color, dress and language - is a perception based on ethno-culture. Since the media and society socialize us to accept certain images as the "truth." What''s the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of Africa? People with pierced noses living in the savannah, half-clothed by loincloths and saras ? That''s not Africa - at least not the majority of it, but that''s the image sold to you (anybody seen that Hyundia ad where the East Africans are admiring their red Sonata?)

Your impressions of us are not who we are, but since you base all your responses on those (false) impressions, you react inappropriately. I don''t blame you, though, because until we can control and project our own images... nothing will change. That''s why I advocate black game designers doing their own thing rather than berating others.
[/potentially offensive]

quote: Original post by David_Kay
Show you figures? If someone actually went out and documented that information, what would happen to them? Most likely they would be called racists for even wanting to do that.

[sarcasm]Yeah, that''s why we have a "racist" government.[/sarcasm]

The Census Bureau has that information. It''s widely available. It''s a simple statistic.

quote: Your thoughts about 60 minutes and showing black women is utter muck. You''re seeing only what you want to see.

[sarcasm]Yeah, you''re right. I''m seeing stereotypical reporting in purely objective television.[/sarcasm]

quote: Here is some serious food for thought. African-Americans have a month to reflect on their History. (Black History Month) if there was such as thing like "White History Month" there will be talks about racism.

I''ve heard this argument before. The other eleven months celebrate "White History." You don''t think people forcibly displaced (not migrated) and disconnected from their ancestry don''t deserve a month to celebrate their (new) history, especially in the light of all the years of subjugation? The shortest month? The coldest month?

quote: BET (Black Entertainment Television) over here on the East Coast, plays purely African American music videos, correct me if I''m wrong, but I never seen a non-African-American/Hispanic music video on that station.

Gee, I don''t know. That''s a little complex: do you classify Eminem as black? Or Bubba Sparxxx? And I guess Bono''s All-Star Tribute is now African-American/Hispanic? BET plays hip-hop, R&B and soul music. If white people did it - and did it good - they''d get play on BET.

quote: In these music videos they bash plenty of times on the "white" race.

You don''t actually watch this stuff, do you? These videos don''t "bash" on the "white" race; they point out the ways in which they are discriminated against - such as Trick Daddy''s I''m a Thug video which has him in a high-class store buying a dress for his girlfriend and attempting to pay by card. He''s pointed to a sign that says "No Checks or Cards," and so he reaches into his pocket. An elderly lady immediately screams "He''s got a gun!" and the guards start springing into action. Turns out he was pulling out a bundle of cash.

That''s funny to us because it happens , and if you say it doesn''t... well, you say so.

Dauntless , you make some very good points. I hope I have been able to clarify my position on the homosexuality issue. I think they are discriminated against and deserve better representation (they are human, so we should respect them as such).

I wish to apologize to all for any ways in which I may have insulted them or incited their irritation. The issues of race, ethnicity and culture are incredibly complex, and this is not the appropriate forum to discuss them. I probably shouldn''t have responded to these issues, but I felt that I needed to clarify my positions.

quote: Original post by Dauntless
So, how come so few protagonists in games have been obese or ugly? One could say the same thing. We don''t want to relate to someone like that deep down (even if we CAN relate...we''d rather relate to the good-looking hero). Is that discrimination? I wouldn''t say discrimination so far as I''d say that it was a projection of what we wish we were like.

I think that when we play games, we seek fantastic scenarios. We seek the fulfilment/experience of our desires. A game in which you do things that you do in everyday life (go to work, feed and walk the dog, take out the trash) - or things you don''t even want to do in everyday life (such as being obese for non-obese people) - would not only be incredibly boring, but an absolute commercial failure. So I think you hit it bang on the head: we want to identify with and personify our "ideal images.

MY first thought when i see a black person is whether or not they are going to blame me for some guy owning slaves hundreds of years ago, before his or my familiy even came into this country. obviously, because i am not black, i somehow caused racism as we know it.

quote: Your impressions of us are not who we are, but since you base all your responses on those (false) impressions, you react inappropriately.

hmmm... maybe YOUR impression that everyone is out to get you is really in YOUR head?

quote: [sarcasm]Yeah, you''re right. I''m seeing stereotypical reporting in purely objective television.[/sarcasm]

um, NO television is purely objective. even the alleged "news" shows are written to cater to ratings, and sensationalize whatever the issue of the month is. not to mention the producers and station owners have final say about what goes on their show.

quote: I''ve heard this argument before. The other eleven months celebrate "White History." You don''t think people forcibly displaced (not migrated) and disconnected from their ancestry don''t deserve a month to celebrate their (new) history, especially in the light of all the years of subjugation? The shortest month? The coldest month?

HA HA HA HA HA!!! why then don''t we CALL the other 11 months "white history months"????? because that would be racist! you can claim whatever you like, but the fact is that black people fought and fought to get what they call "equal rights" but which is in reality "special rights"... the most important being the right to call others racist while being racist themselves. you are a racist and a hypocrite. oh, and tell me, where exactly in africa were you living before you were captured and put on a slave ship? and how many years were you a slave on a plantation, before you became a free man? unless you can tell me that, you personally don''t "deserve" a damn thing.
yes, some black people made important contributions to lotsa stuff american, as well as world, history. and every time one is mentioned, someone points out "hey, he was black." why are black people so hung up on this? i don''t point out that einstein or george washington or whoever was white every time they are mentioned in history!
i expect your only response will be that i am racist. this isn''t true, i''m just sick of being persecuted for not being a minority. i want it to be REALLY fair and equal, rather than the current system (the more of a minority you are, the "fairer" it gets for you).
argh... i feel better now...

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)