If the point of games were education, sure, we would need to portrait different cultures/races/religions. This, however, is not the case. The point of games is entertainment.

Why then are so few lead characters in games of other cultures than the typical western white male? For the same reason that Lara Croft has huge ****. The majority of consumers in this business are "young white males" and when games are designed this is what the designers have in mind.

I guarantee that the day females (to mention the largest minority) throw as much money into this business as 16 year old white geeks, we will see many more games with female leads (other than Lara Croft which definately has some appeal to the before mentioned group).

Unfortunately, morals play little role when it comes to business. And trust me, companies couldnt care less whether or not they are politically correct as long as the cash rolls in.

My 2c

I think it should be stated that we have seemed to turn our attention to purely American made games. If we look at games from Japan then you will find that there are very few if any white male leads. They aren''t trying to be anti-white male, it''s what they can relate to. In america the majority are whitemales (so far) so games with white male leads are something that the majority of game player can relate to. So back to my question from before, how much culture can I put into a game to make it interesting and keep it from being offensive??

quote: Original post by TechnoHydra
So back to my question from before, how much culture can I put into a game to make it interesting and keep it from being offensive??

Again, I think the best, most enjoyable, and most sophistocated way to do this is to make it understated.

I was watching Starship Troopers the other night and was thinking about this thread. Whatever you think of the movie, if you watch it you''ll notice that it''s thoroughly inclusive, without bothering to make a statement. Rather than treating people as groups, you get individuals, all of who happen to be different cultures.

What''s the most respectful thing you can do for a friend? Say you wanted to put your friend in your game. You probably wouldn''t caricature them, or objectify them. You''d probably, instead, treat them with respect, and even if you made them the villain, you''d probably treat them as an individual, not a stereotype.

Really, that''s all you need. I think the poor representation of culture and gender we see has a lot to do with how well we relate to other people. Everybody''s the same in wanting respect. Just as we wouldn''t want to be portrayed as immature, acne-scarred geeks, or socially inept losers / loners, we don''t want to portray women as objects or other cultures as our worst fears.

It''s really simple.

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Well I take a break and things get ugly in here. Well Oluseyi I''m usually with ya man, but that whole gay thing strayed from your usual informed posts. At any rate let me take this back to one of the earlier posts "people make games based on what they identify with" By that logic, if the lead character is a human being no matter what color, the game creator should identify with that character right? So why is it that the overwhelming majority of characters seem to be so similar? Hell, either there is one GIANT company with many subsidiaries that makes all games, or people just dont think about it. Games need to be as diverse as the people that play them to put it simply. (That is if game creation is really an art as it is said to be)

There was another poster who said that basketball games were accurately representative of black folks. Man are you crazy or just mentally lacking? A game that features a central black character doesnt need to be some kind of protest or politically charged game- it only needs to be a game with humans in it.

Run Away Slave Productions? That is a ridiculous name. Free yourself from the shackles of misguided tribute. I understand your motives behind the name, but it really is an objectification of the reality behind what a run away slave had to go through.

BTW~ I recently saw an Nsync video on BET


J.C.

"True belief cannot be that which narrows ones vision"

quote: Original post by Lifeblood BTW~ I recently saw an Nsync video on BET

all that means is that there are some black people with really really bad taste too

quote: Original post by Lifeblood
Well Oluseyi I''m usually with ya man, but that whole gay thing strayed from your usual informed posts.

I think most people misinterpreted my post. I have nothing against gay people and I don''t feel insecure interacting with them. However, I think issues of sexual and ethnic discrimination, while having a lot in common, are quite different. That''s all I said, and that''s all I''ll say.

krez, you can call me a racist. It doesn''t bother me. I''m actually a separatist (me and Chris Rock); I think we wont be able to interact properly as communities until we are on equal footing, and I believe that wont happen until we control our respective images, economies, governments and so forth. But since that is unlikely to happen (in the US)... I''ll concentrate my efforts on Africa.

TerranFury, I''m Yoruba. My parents are Nigerians and I went to the second half of elementary school, high school and 3 years of college in Nigeria. I know how many countries are in Africa (53), and considering that there are over 250 ethnicities in Nigeria - draw your own conclusions. I just happen to live, work and currently go to school in the US, and identify with African American culture.

I honestly think the best-qualified people to represent "minorities" are "minorities." I''m not saying that non-"minorities" can''t do a very good job; all it takes is respect, as Wav said.

As for why I keep quoting "minorities", well, they''re only minorities in the context of certain locations. "Minority" has a totally different connotation in Africa. I hope I''ve clarified my positions sufficiently and helped to end the derailment of this thread.

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
krez, you can call me a racist. It doesn''t bother me. I''m actually a separatist (me and Chris Rock); I think we wont be able to interact properly as communities until we are on equal footing, and I believe that wont happen until we control our respective images, economies, governments and so forth.

heh heh, if you are white and a "separatist" it means you are racist... this double standard is ridiculous... the reason it doesn''t bother you is (a) you are racist and like it, or (b) you are too stupid to see that "racist" and "separatist" are the same thing.
i don''t understand why YOU can''t interact with people of other races; personally, i have no problem with it, except for when someone has this "i''m a minority, so i''m better than you" reverse-racist attitude that you display. if you spent less time working everything into a racial issue, and more time learning tolerance for others, someday you might be able to see a white man and not hate him because his great-great grand-daddy may or may not have owned a slave. yes, i know there are racist white people, but that doesn''t mean all of them are, so stop assuming we are all out to get you.

quote: But since that is unlikely to happen (in the US)... I''ll concentrate my efforts on Africa. (...) I just happen to live, work and currently go to school in the US, and identify with African American culture.

on a totally separate note, people like you make me sick. if you are so damn proud of your country, why don''t you live there and work there, instead of using the USA for it''s economy and schools? or, if you want to take advantage of American benefits, be an American. there should be a tax or something for you people, to discourage this.
now, just to keep this thread from being closed:
does anyone know of any games where the main character is not white or asian? if so, does the character''s race matter (ie affect gameplay, fit a story that wouldn''t work with a white/asain guy, etc) in the game, or is it just more-or-less arbitrary?

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

quote: Original post by krez
heh heh, if you are white and a "separatist" it means you are racist...

No. Racism is not separatism. Racism is ethnic attribution - believing that persons of a certain ethnicity have a certain (usually negative) attribute, such as believing black people are intrinsically "criminal." I''ll be the first to admit that the term racism is too broadly applied.

quote: this double standard is ridiculous... the reason it doesn''t bother you is (a) you are racist and like it, or (b) you are too stupid to see that "racist" and "separatist" are the same thing.

Your insistence on labelling is pathetic. I don''t say there''s anything wrong with you, but that I may not receive the respect I feel is due me as a human being until I (and mine) are on equal fiscal and political footing. Note that I don''t accuse you of anything, but you are determined to brand me some off-the-edge psycho-radical.

Btw, I don''t appreciate being called stupid.

quote: i don''t understand why YOU can''t interact with people of other races;

How you infer this from my post is beyond me. You''re reading what you want to read rather than what I''ve written. I never told you I don''t want to interact with white people; I said that I believe that black and white people - as a collective - will not be able to interact on equal footing until they actually are. Is your view so myopic that you can''t fathom the concept of the mass as opposed to the individual?

quote: personally, i have no problem with it, except for when someone has this "i''m a minority, so i''m better than you" reverse-racist attitude that you display.

a.) We have to take your word for that; and
b.) I don''t display such an attitude. I''ve conceded to some of your opinions, but you haven''t even given a single one of mine an unbiased consideration. I''ve said that black people have their own responsibility to bear in their continued misrepresentation, but you (naturally) didn''t notice that.

quote: if you spent less time working everything into a racial issue, and more time learning tolerance for others, someday you might be able to see a white man and not hate him because his great-great grand-daddy may or may not have owned a slave.

I don''t hate you. I don''t hate white people. I may not initially experience a warm glow of kinship when I meet a white person, but that cannot be construed as hate. I don''t even know the person!

I see a pattern developing here: you''d characterized me in your mind (starting with your earlier statement that prejudicial treatment was a figment of my "deluded" imagination - paraphrasing you) and since have not really noted what I''m trying to convey. You''ve misinterpreted every single one of my posts (and have an alarmingly ignorant comprehension of the language of sociological discourse).

quote: yes, i know there are racist white people, but that doesn''t mean all of them are, so stop assuming we are all out to get you.

Assumed assumption.

quote: on a totally separate note, people like you make me sick. if you are so damn proud of your country, why don''t you live there and work there, instead of using the USA for it''s economy and schools? or, if you want to take advantage of American benefits, be an American. there should be a tax or something for you people, to discourage this.

You really are ignorant. I was born in Ithaca, NY. I am an American citizen (ever heard of double citizenship?) Any taxes applied to me are automatically applied to you.

krez, you have continually insulted and accused me without taking the time to actually digest what I communicate and infer. Note that apart from stating that you''ve made assumptions about my positions, and noting the apparent ignorance you display on socio-political issues (without calling your opinions invalid, but your analyses of my opinions flawed due to misunderstanding), I have in no way insulted you. I have respected your right to an opinion, but you have absolutely no right to insult me, especially on such misperceived bases. This is me trying to be reasonable.

This thread had a very good beginning, but went OT after I objected to the co-classification of ethnic and sexual discrimination. I did not say that sexual discrimination was not an issue, and neither did I say I had any problems with homosexuality, but in attempts to be "PC" I was repeatedly condemned. Then I was labelled racist.

This thread is now beyond redemption. I tried once to clarify my positions; I tried a second time. Each time I was insulted an accused. My positions are very normal. They may not be the things people often admit to, but they are very normal. I would rather not be called an extremist, a racist or anything that I''m not (and I realize that few who are ever accept it, but I believe the history of my opinions all over this site - even on volatile topics - bears me out). I''m asking nicely, so please let it stop.

Oh...

Maybe we shouldn''t play as human beings anymore. Maybe human life is irrelivant to gameplay, and we should just use tiny monkies who are condemned to wheelchairs?

Or maybe we should make all of the charecters Chinese/African/Whatever since they founded America, right? I think not.

And, if games are based on who founded this land we call America, then every game should have "native Americans" or "american indians" instead?

Oh heres one... who about parapolegics and mentally disabled people?

Maybe we should consider not putting images in games anymore?

My point is... who really cares? Who wants to argue about this?

Games are directed generally to the younger males in the world, except for maybe a few games like Barbie Hair Syler or whatever... most are directed to young boys.

If you want Chinese charecters in games... buy imported games from Japan, like Dragon Ball Z Legends or Final Bout.

And, about black and white... its impossible to debate without stereotyping the both of them.

I am part Cherokee Indian and part American. I would much rather play my game as a Cherokee Indian but I really couldn''t care less.

I don''t remember who pointed out the fact that Baldur''s Gate allowed you to choose... but thats the way all games should be.

In the older days... Chinese and Japanese people inhabited China and Japan... and the setting of certain games may not have been there.

It all depends on the setting.

If I made a game based on life in Africa..... do you think there would be more white or black people? If there were more whites than the programmer was racsist

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you..."~Friedrich Nietzsche

quote: Original post by Oluseyi
No. Racism is not separatism. Racism is ethnic attribution - believing that persons of a certain ethnicity have a certain (usually negative) attribute, such as believing black people are intrinsically "criminal." I''ll be the first to admit that the term racism is too broadly applied.

i never said racism is separatism. i said that if a white person is separatist, it is considered racism; i am simply expanding on this rather than choking down the double standard. because a white person cannot stand up and say "i am a separatist" without scorn, i apply the same thing to you.

quote: Your insistence on labelling is pathetic. I don''t say there''s anything wrong with you, but that I may not receive the respect I feel is due me as a human being until I (and mine) are on equal fiscal and political footing. Note that I don''t accuse you of anything, but you are determined to brand me some off-the-edge psycho-radical.

hmmm... i don''t remember calling you any such thing... but labeling is the basis of any language. "ball" is a label for a small round object we are all familiar with... "cat" is a label for the animal some people have as pets... what label exactly do you object to?

quote: Btw, I don''t appreciate being called stupid.

who does?

quote: "i don''t understand why YOU can''t interact with people of other races;"... How you infer this from my post is beyond me. You''re reading what you want to read rather than what I''ve written. I never told you I don''t want to interact with white people; I said that I believe that black and white people - as a collective - will not be able to interact on equal footing until they actually are. Is your view so myopic that you can''t fathom the concept of the mass as opposed to the individual?

well, you went on about how black and white people "cannot interact on equal footing"... why would you say such a thing if it didn''t apply to you?
the "mass" is actually made up of many individuals... and you are speaking as one person, not the "collective". i am not addressing the "collective", i am addressing you. you are an individual. whatever these "masses" you speak of believe, you still have free will. so, what you write reflects what you think (i am assuming that you are not the designated speaker of the black race).

quote: a.) We have to take your word for that; and

well, that was uncalled for.

quote: b.) I don''t display such an attitude. I''ve conceded to some of your opinions, but you haven''t even given a single one of mine an unbiased consideration. I''ve said that black people have their own responsibility to bear in their continued misrepresentation, but you (naturally) didn''t notice that.

but you DO. you said yourself you have a problem interacting with people of other races (unless you just meant that all the other black people in your "collective" except you feel this way, but you just mentioned it for kicks).
i noticed it. i just had nothing to say in response to that part. i don''t bother writing "kudos" to every point that i agree with... i just answer those i disagree with.

quote: I don''t hate you. I don''t hate white people. I may not initially experience a warm glow of kinship when I meet a white person, but that cannot be construed as hate. I don''t even know the person!

this implies that you DO feel a warm glow of kinship with non-white people, right? this is racism. sorry if i confused "racism" and "hate"...

quote: I see a pattern developing here: you''d characterized me in your mind (starting with your earlier statement that prejudicial treatment was a figment of my "deluded" imagination - paraphrasing you) and since have not really noted what I''m trying to convey.

i''ve characterized you based on what you write, which is my only information about you. i''m sure you have done the same to me.
and yes, discrimination exists... but by calling yourself a "separatist" you are condemning all white people, and a lot of them do not deserve it. if you were not, then you wouldn''t be a "separatist", you would be a person who hates discrimination.

quote: You''ve misinterpreted every single one of my posts (and have an alarmingly ignorant comprehension of the language of sociological discourse).

i''m sorry if it is hard for me to glean your meaning from what you write... i missed the class about "the language of sociological discourse" i guess... and being a left-brainer i think that sociological-anything is a waste of time, a subject for people who cannot do math or understand biology.
regardless, though, i have a decent command of the english language; if you want to use buzzwords from a worthless field of study feel free, but i must warn you that i will understand them to mean what they would assuming the normal english usage.

quote: You really are ignorant. I was born in Ithaca, NY. I am an American citizen (ever heard of double citizenship?) Any taxes applied to me are automatically applied to you.

i''m sorry, i could have sworn you said, "I''ll concentrate my efforts on Africa... I just happen to live, work and currently go to school in the US, and identify with African American culture." what i said was based on this; you certainly talked more highly about nigeria than the country that you are currently using for it''s schools and economy. please don''t call me ignorant when all i have to go on is your own words; if you don''t want to give people false impressions then don''t say things that you will later decide are untrue.

quote: krez, you have continually insulted and accused me without taking the time to actually digest what I communicate and infer.

how do you know that i haven''t digested what you said, and then let it pass through like all similar roughage? you know, it might be possible that i CAN understand your words, and just disagree?

quote: Note that apart from stating that you''ve made assumptions about my positions, and noting the apparent ignorance you display on socio-political issues (without calling your opinions invalid, but your analyses of my opinions flawed due to misunderstanding), I have in no way insulted you.

and you have made assumptions that i do not understand this conversastion. what you call "ignorance [about] socio-political issues" i call a "difference of opinion".

quote: I have respected your right to an opinion, but you have absolutely no right to insult me, especially on such misperceived bases. This is me trying to be reasonable.

i apologize if you took offense at something i said, but you must understand, i have lived the better part of my life hearing such unsound arguments from people who think i am a horrible person because i am white. i am sick an tired of having to hear crap about it, and being tagged as racist because it just isn''t valid.
how have i insulted you? by pointing out the obvious? by applying the double-standard that i have to deal with to yourself? i didn''t agree with most of the things you have said, but i do not recall outright insulting you... can you give an example?

quote: This thread had a very good beginning, but went OT after I objected to the co-classification of ethnic and sexual discrimination. I did not say that sexual discrimination was not an issue, and neither did I say I had any problems with homosexuality, but in attempts to be "PC" I was repeatedly condemned. Then I was labelled racist.

eh, this thread started out as a troll. whoever posted it was just hoping that a guy like you would cross posts with a guy like me, for the entertainment of all and the frustration of some.
and you are racis... oh wait, separatist...

quote: This thread is now beyond redemption. I tried once to clarify my positions; I tried a second time. Each time I was insulted an accused. My positions are very normal. They may not be the things people often admit to, but they are very normal. I would rather not be called an extremist, a racist or anything that I''m not (and I realize that few who are ever accept it, but I believe the history of my opinions all over this site - even on volatile topics - bears me out). I''m asking nicely, so please let it stop.

i think you are perceiving insults when none is there... which would explain why you are "separatist"
believe it or not, i am not exactly alone in my opinion either. and that WAS my original point, LET IT STOP. the past is the past. minorities are not being repressed. they are not being hated. yes, there are still some racists in the world; there probably always will be. but, they can''t do anything about it anymore. there is no slavery. there is equal opportunity employers (much fairer than "affirmative action", that nice piece of legal racism). so why must you be separatist? why can''t you just drop the whole skin color thing already?

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)