I too am impressed at the level of maturity displayed in this thread. I attribute that partly to Wav''s earlier warning, but mostly to the fact that the people who frequent the Game Design forum are some of the most open-minded. Thanks to all.

TechnoHydra: you''ve summed it up perfectly. We deal with what we''re comfortable with, and that''s perfectly normal. However, as you point out, cultural variety could open up new gameplay possibilities (or serve as a source of new puzzle types).

TechnoHydra

I know where you are coming from. I''m Irish German and Polish from my dad (who wsa a Navy Brat and grew up all over the world), and Filipino Indonesian Spanish and Turkish from my mom (who was born and raised in the Islamic Basilan island of the Phillipines). I also have a mixed up religious background with elements of Catholicism, Buddhism and Islam thrown in for good measure.

What I find interesting is that most people tend to see what is different about others, and only see what is common when they have to. I think it''s natural and a defense mechanism (that which is different is unknown and therefore potentially dangerous, whereas the known is familiar and more secure). I think growing up mixed, I''ve always been an outsider, and I''ve never really related to ANYONE. If I ask whites or blacks what they think I am, they say Hawaiian, Eurasian, Native American, Hispanic, Arabic, or Italian pretty much in that order (someone even wondered if I was eskimo (inuit) once...). To hispanics, I''m hispanic, and to asians, I''m 100% white. So pretty much no matter where I go, I don''t really "fit in". And when I mean fit in, it''s at a very basic primal level. Even other minorities can feel comfort and safety amongst their own...and a sense of belonging.

Since I never had that, I''ve learned to be an outsider, and to see what people have in common rather than what is different. I think it''s very important in a game to realize the impact that culture and ethnicity play in attracting a user base as well as making it "PC". For example, there might be an uproar if an Arabic protagonist was set for an anti-terrorist game. How many people would play it and would it have lots of backlash? How about playing a Catholic Irish in the Ulster/Armagh area of Northern Ireland? The type of game is crucial, as a black mario wouldn''t be as unsettling as playing a strategy game of say....playing the Israeli IDF in a strategy game.

ooops, that last reply was from me

Surely you definitely dont want to be stereotypical, again im saying it seems like game companies are in a time flux, do they actually GO OUTSIDE and look at the way life is now? Especially with the audience they are selling too?

Now i know I cannot be wrong with titles like NBA Street and Activision''s streetball titles coming soon, are they to be saying my tastes are only relevant enough for sports? What about fighting games, they are just as popular in minority communities, especially the old school double dragon styled ones.

Again what im talking about is richness of the world of the characters, one of my Rpgs that im working on deals with Arabic legends and myths which i find to be really really rich, am I Arab, no, not at all, but just because im not doesnt mean that it should stop me from exploring the possibilities of making an rpg that focuses in its legends and myths. Im also doing the same with a Greek envirionment in an adventure game. Im saying what kind of designer are you when you cannot break boundaries??, and just stick to which is comfortable, Im asking you HOW GOOD CAN you possibly be? Are you that good of a designer to begin with?. I mean personally I dont think we have seen a TRUE videogame designer yet because all of them just do what is comfortable recycling the same thing over and over again, the reason why Spike Lee wont ever be on the level of a Spielberg is because he pigeonholed himself, (to the other guy i seriously would reconsider naming my developer Run Away Slave) he could never release something like a Star Wars or a Fight Club for that matter. Its the same with designers, people would probably laugh if Miyamoto said he was doing a Grand Theft Auto styled game. I dont know about you guys but im trying to be Spielberg with my creations, you will Never know what i am going to do next.

1.) Incoherence precludes effective discussion. Communication is an essential skill, and I don''t think you come across clearly. Your post was horrendously punctuated and difficult to follow (and considering how short it was, that''s a sad thing).

2.) There have been many true game designers, as you label them. Every genre we see now was started by someone; someone did not "recycle the same old thing" at some point, which is why we have what we have now. Peter Molyneux essentially created the god-game with Populous ; id created the FPS with Wolfenstein and Doom ; and the sim-genre is entirely the product of the mind of Will Wright. Think of Nolan Bushnell - he created the videogame industry with Pong , and at the time it was a totally new game.

3.) What a developer calls himself is not often very important, because the vast majority of the consumer-oriented hype focuses on the publisher. There are some ridiculous names out there. My grouse with the name is the terms of reference.

Since we''re on the topic of enriching game content with cultural diversity and background, I have a question. This probably needs to be under its own topic but here goes. How much culture does it take to really add new meaning to a game without it locking itself into one place or getting people up in arms over something? (Its late so I hope this makes sense) I dont want to offend anybody with my games but it would be nice to play games with someone elses perspective. How much is too little, and how much is too much? I expect were all going to have a different opinion on this but if we could reach some middle ground on it, some basic principles to guide design I think it would help bridge gaps.

The fact that you are dealing with several cultural contexts, while commendable, says nothing about you as a game designer. Your characters could be rich, positive portrayals of Arabs and Greeks... and the game could suck!

Games are about gameplay.

quote: Original post by AngelStar
...the reason why Spike Lee wont ever be on the level of a Spielberg is because he pigeonholed himself...

If you think critically about it, Steven Spielberg''s most fiscally lucrative films have essentially been B-movie stories with A-grade special effects. He changed the industry in that regard, in that it became credible to deal with fantasy as serious matter. Spike, OTOH, tries to make statements with every movie rather than focusing on entertaining. Statements are good, but lighthearted entertainment or non-confrontational subject are also good.

quote: ...people would probably laugh if Miyamoto said he was doing a Grand Theft Auto styled game...

Given how Miyamoto has been able to bring impressive gameplay elements to virtually everything he has touched, I think not. I think you still don''t get it that games are about gameplay . Setting, story, characters and all of those things are just plausible introductions to the challenges the game presents to the player. If I was told Miyamoto was working on GTA4 (for GameCube, no less), I''d be very keen to see what he does.

Someone in the first page said games are not like books in the sense that they are not about putting out the "right message" but about selling. I dont know about anyone on this forum but I cannot remember the last time I got a book for free. Usually I have to buy them. And yes, there is a huge marketing campaign when a book is going to be put out, and all sorts of concerns about the plot and how "PC" it is.

There are huge markets out there of women and minorities who are simply not being appealed to by most current games.

Game designers and game companies have a challenge and an opportunity as the gaming generation gets older and more diversified:

1)Create games (probably in foreign subsidiary studios) based on other cultures in order to access those markets

2)Create games with gameplay suitable to a older and more diversified group of gamers

3)Create games with CONTENT suitable to a older and more diversified group of gamers

Its refreshing to see games like Silent Hill 2 pushing the envelope on content and appealing to more mature audiences. My 14 year old brother hated the game, but I loved it. Games like Dance Dance Revolution are fun and appealing across the board, at least on the gender and race issues.

I am NOT however, saying developers are racist and/or trying to opress anyone. They''re too busy making kick ass games! Hell, there were games with minorities as the main characters (aren''t asians minorities in the US??). Anyone remember Shadowman (I think thats what it was called..)

But the industry has matured a lot, and perhaps its time to be even more bold and daring... Adn trust me, there is $$$ in appealing to minorities.

Gameplay is obvious O, I dont mention it because EVERY GOOD designer should focus on gameplay, what im saying is why not have immersion and gameplay as well?

Mentioning gameplay is like saying when in a relationship youre supposed to be honest, its a no brainer, of course gameplay matters please dont be so short sighted, im saying look past that what about the bigger picture

And to the last poster of course minority themed games can do well, I made my example with NBA street which obviously did well enough for Activision to start their own streetball series with that "Hood" realism in it. Im saying why does it just have to be sports?

Anyone remember the film industry when it was young? All of the characters and plots in old movies were completely static.......white guy, white chick, happy ending. Well the game industry is relatively young things are starting to change I''m sure that there are plenty of games either in development right now or being developed that feature a more diverse plot and characters. Actually most of the games that I have designed do not even have a true lead character. The lead character of my games depend on the person playing them; different people will identify with different characters as the lead. Whereas a lot of game designers focus heavily on gameplay while designing thier games my main focus is the characters. I want each character to seem alive to the gamer so that he/she forgets that they are actually playing a game. I want anyone who is playing a game that I designed to feel like they are "a fly on the wall" so to speak. When I play a game it really doesnt matter what color or gender a character is its rather or not I can identify with a characters motives and personality.

Heres a warning message to the posters who cried foul at the hint of "political correctness" dont automatically discount political correctness as worthless. I am willing to venture that every poster on this site has a mother or sister or maybe even a daughter everytime you cry "oh thats just political correctness rearing its ugly head again" remember that it is apathetic attitudes like yours which ensure that women - (your mothers, sisters, or daughters) will always be paid less than a man for the same job. Think about it.

***Shameless plug warning*****
Be sure to check out both Gods Bane and Age of Man (my two rpgs) when they are released in late 2002

Good points Wavinator and Olesuyi

Good Day All
J.C.