quote: Original post by Hase
...a wider and more diversified audience will... call for... the lead characters... to become more generic... to allow everyone to identify himself with him/her.
...every strong example of one ethnicity will invariably cause someone to feel excluded.

Bollocks! (That was fun to say! )

You refer to film, so I refer back to film as well. The overwhelming majority of action films star "heterosexual caucasian males," and yet very diverse audiences comprehend and appreciate the story, emotional situations and challenges. Do you think black kids were in the theatre during Mission:Impossible II saying "But you know a brother wouldn''t ''ve put it down like dat!"?

quote: This does not just go as far as color, but also culture.
...you have to make EVERY character understandable, even to a person of a vastly different cultural background.

How many times has culture ever been an issue in a video game? Hell, in how many films has culture been an issue? Dramas only; since there are, as yet, no video game dramas, this argument can not be supported. And, as with dramas, people watching them know that they are displaced and either research the customs of the period independently (think of all those Merchant Ivory films...) or make assumptions.

quote: ...if you use anything else than that "default", you automatically make the characters ethnicity part of the story. Not because you intend to, but because people will assume that it is significant, because it is a break from the norm.

Do you really think so? I don''t. In the games where there have been characters of color or alternate gender (female leads didn''t have action titles before Lara, except for Jane of the Jungle... ) the public has briefly commented on it and then swallowed it whole-heartedly.

quote: (cont''d.)If [my commercial game] is seen as [a political statement], it invariably means that someone will be pissed off. Either some minority, for being misrepresented, or the larger audience, for having to put up with stereotypes, or even worse, for having bought a black/green/whatever-rights activists game.

Hmm. The larger audience has never been offended by stereotypes of the minorities; if anything they have taken umbrage at faithful representation. The first image that comes to the average (<--I said AVERAGE!) suburban white person''s mind when you speak of black folk is gangbangin'' and ghettos; say latino and it''s illegal immigration, though that is gradually changing.

Actually, that last statement illustrates my point precisely. The movie Spy Kids was a latino movie - down to the children''s names (recall the scene where the daughter''s full name is the "passcode" to the secret hideout) - and yet no such statement was made in the media. Why? Because over time the public has come to accept that as the norm. A female action lead was enough of a rarity for it to be noticeable when Gina Whats-her-name starred in The Long Kiss Goodnight ; Tomb Raider: Lara Croft comes out to no such fanfare, due to the fact that its predecessors (and the game) had made it commonplace.

If we say we wish to advance the craft of game design, then we must be willing to break with norms and rigid definitions, and try out new recipes. If it bombs, move on. That''s life.

(obviously trying to bring things back on- topic).

I had been meaning to quote this for a w hile now:

quote: Original post by Wavinator
There was an old space RPG called Solar Winds whose main character was black. It was completely understated, as in, "Yeah, it''s the future, you''re a black person, so what? Go shoot some pirates!"

I played Solar Winds (and loved it!) And as Wav points out, the "blackness" of the main character was a non-issue in the game. Heck, I never really noticed it until now (and I''m black!)

I still feel that "to each his own," so to speak: deal with what you know. If you happen to be a white kid who grew up in the Bronx or Brooklyn - aight then, put black peoples in you gamez! If you''re blue-blooded, fine. So long as each ethnicity has creative people who discover this medium, we''ll turn out right.

I hope.

for any who honestly belive that what im talking about here is color, it isnt, again i am talking about culture plain and simple, am I trying to personally do something about it, yes i am, the reason for this post is because i am trying to do something about it I am ignored as far as getting attention, its harder to land publishers, to land contracts and to find programmers as well as raise capital. Doing yourself is one thing, it means nothing if the doors into the room have an extra lock on them.

Oh and one more thing for those who think it really doesnt matter

Imagine Shenmue based in Harlem and how much the game would change dramatically

Imagine Big Blue Box''s upcoming Project Ego, based in China instead of Britain

Simply putting blackface or chinese face or spanish face or whatever isnt what im talking about

What im talking about is the laziness of game designers who dont treat what they do seriously enough to do research on things they dont know about, i personally do it all the time.

I rest my case

AngelStar,

You do what you need to; let other designers/developers do what they do. It''s just like the movies: the most effective and representative black movies have been by black directors and writers; the most representative Latino movies have been by Latino directors and writers, and so on. It is perfectly normal for a person to turn to their own experiences when crafting a fiction, and it might even be better - they may fail miserably if they tried to reflect another ethnicity or culture accurately.

So don''t blame the industry for the lack of titles that portray other ethnicities; rather, blame the industry for the apparent lack of diversity amongst designers and developers.

You speak of it being harder to land publishers, contracts and programmers and raise capital; perhaps you pitch your products wrong? Should you be pitching a game on the basis of the cultural context of the character(s) or on the gameplay possibilities? I can''t imagine that a publisher would reject a stellar game concept because it was situated somewhere unusual or the context presented new choices to the gamer. Isn''t that the "holy grail" of game design? If, however, the game is presented as a "cultural experience", then I''m with the publisher - yuck.

Games are made predominatly for white/asian males by white/asian males. What do you expect? It''s not an excuse, but it''s reality. If you want accurate reflection of blacks, most sports games do a pretty good job.

quote:
But that, to me, doesn''t seem to justify dismissing complaints altogether. I think the most fantastic way to do this is when it''s no big deal. There was an old space RPG called Solar Winds whose main character was black. It was completely understated, as in, "Yeah, it''s the future, you''re a black person, so what? Go shoot some pirates!"

That was a kickass game, I didn''t even realize the main charecter was black until you brought it up...

quote:
I won''t imply this, but I think that anyone who makes monoculture games is just being very provincial.

Without being nitpicky on the obvious and numerable exceptions of such an overgeneralizing comment, let''s say I agree.

quote:
Games might be a small niche right now, but when the first thing somebody thinks about when considering a black character is, "is this game about gangbanging?" I know we have far to go.

I generally think stereotypes are Bad Things, and it''s hard to pretend they don''t exist at all. But this is so inept I can''t believe anyone could seriously assert this, and it''s pretty insulting. It was probably an exaggeration, but someone might take you seriously. And, of course, no one complains when whites are put in gangbanging roles. And games are not a ''small niche'', they gross more than the movie industry.

quote:
Tha_HoodRat
I wonder , would the game be any different if Mario was African American ?

Wavinator
NONE!!!! And that''s the funny thing! I have known folks who seem think that as soon as you change the character''s color something horrible happens-- as if terrified youngsters are going to be sobbing, holding their parent''s pant leg, and pointing at the screen if the character is non-white. *exasperation!*

Interesting example, you pick a game that seriously stereotypes Italian-Americans and then suggest noone would think twice about the lead charecters of two black plumber brothers named Mario and Luigi. Who are you trying to fool? It counter-stereotype enough for people to notice. I''m not attatching a value judgement, but the reality is that it would have people wondering ''What the Fuck were those designers thinking?''.


Mike

quote: Original post by Oluseyi

The overwhelming majority of action films star "heterosexual caucasian males," and yet very diverse audiences comprehend and appreciate the story, emotional situations and challenges. Do you think black kids were in the theatre during Mission:Impossible II saying "But you know a brother wouldn't 've put it down like dat!"?

Maybe you´re right and I dont give the audience enough credit, although I believe that we are not talking about action movies, since culture IS an issue. Action movies are easy, almost anything goes, but the ethnicity of the lead character is usually just for color, no real issues behind that.

quote:
How many times has culture ever been an issue in a video game? Hell, in how many films has culture been an issue? Dramas only; since there are, as yet, no video game dramas, this argument can not be supported. And, as with dramas, people watching them know that they are displaced and either research the customs of the period independently (think of all those Merchant Ivory films...) or make assumptions.

So far, not really. But I think that we will be seing more of that, and I think that in that light we are discussing it. Because from the current stage of development, this whole argumentation is pretty much pointless, as cultural background (opposed to skin color) has never been important in a game.
I am just not that certain that drama in video games will be received as well, as the level of identification and interaction is a different one.

quote: ...if you use anything else than that "default", you automatically make the characters ethnicity part of the story. Not because you intend to, but because people will assume that it is significant, because it is a break from the norm.

Do you really think so? I don't. In the games where there have been characters of color or alternate gender (female leads didn't have action titles before Lara, except for Jane of the Jungle... ) the public has briefly commented on it and then swallowed it whole-heartedly.

You´re probably right, arguing from where we are today this is probably not important. But then, female leads have been accepted since.... a long time. I was talking about a real cultural difference, which is obviously not the case with Tomb Raider. Besides, there has been plenty of discussion and criticism about Tomb Raider, mostly not because the lead character was female, but of how she was represented (I even found a book about it once, from the pov of gender studies in media culture... quite interesting actually). Still it sold, but not because she was a woman, but because she was a hot chick. Big difference. The one has a real background, the other doesn´t.

quote: (cont'd.)If [my commercial game] is seen as [a political statement], it invariably means that someone will be pissed off. Either some minority, for being misrepresented, or the larger audience, for having to put up with stereotypes, or even worse, for having bought a black/green/whatever-rights activists game.

Hmm. The larger audience has never been offended by stereotypes of the minorities; if anything they have taken umbrage at faithful representation. The first image that comes to the average (<--I said AVERAGE!) suburban white person's mind when you speak of black folk is gangbangin' and ghettos; say latino and it's illegal immigration, though that is gradually changing.

Well, yes, but don´t we want to make games for everyone? And avoiding stereotypes is exactly what this is about. Maybe even the black folk wouldn´t mind seeing themselves stereotyped in a game, but I think that I would mind if some minority I belongend to were represented in such a way. Going back to your example above: Have you ever asked female players opinions of Tomb Raider?

quote:
Actually, that last statement illustrates my point precisely. The movie Spy Kids was a latino movie - down to the children's names (recall the scene where the daughter's full name is the "passcode" to the secret hideout) - and yet no such statement was made in the media. Why? Because over time the public has come to accept that as the norm. A female action lead was enough of a rarity for it to be noticeable when Gina Whats-her-name starred in The Long Kiss Goodnight ; Tomb Raider: Lara Croft comes out to no such fanfare, due to the fact that its predecessors (and the game) had made it commonplace.

If we say we wish to advance the craft of game design, then we must be willing to break with norms and rigid definitions, and try out new recipes. If it bombs, move on. That's life.

I haven´t seen that film... but from what you say it sounds like it´s just the usual interchangeable stuff... would it have made a difference if the characters were black, or asian?

And about advancing the craft of game design, I agree, we should try new things every now and then, but I think that we must do it in such a way which makes it less of a major issue. If you put a new, more drama-related aspect in your game, you should probably not go any further than present day tv-drama does. If you want to try out radical new things you have to be careful that you don´t offend or alienate anyone with it, because your game has to sell.

This probably sounds pretty bad, but making a game is a huge financial risk, people work their asses off for years, and they have to get paid. And in that light I would rather err on the side of caution..



About the Mario thing: I think it would have made a big difference, as Mario is a very strong, very monodimensional stereotype as he is, if he would have been black, then other characteristics fitting some black stereotype would have to have been found.


/EDIT: post below is also me

Edited by - Hase on October 4, 2001 3:03:02 AM

quote: Original post by AngelStar
for any who honestly belive that what im talking about here is color, it isnt, again i am talking about culture plain and simple, am I trying to personally do something about it, yes i am, the reason for this post is because i am trying to do something about it I am ignored as far as getting attention, its harder to land publishers, to land contracts and to find programmers as well as raise capital. Doing yourself is one thing, it means nothing if the doors into the room have an extra lock on them.

Oh and one more thing for those who think it really doesnt matter

Imagine Shenmue based in Harlem and how much the game would change dramatically

Imagine Big Blue Box''s upcoming Project Ego, based in China instead of Britain

Simply putting blackface or chinese face or spanish face or whatever isnt what im talking about

What im talking about is the laziness of game designers who dont treat what they do seriously enough to do research on things they dont know about, i personally do it all the time.

If you are having trouble with the publishers (more than the usual at least), I agree with Oluseyi, you´re probably trying to sell the wrong points.
I think the trouble you are having could be compared to those of the so-called "christian games", I have no problem with christian content, but those who try to make those games use this facet (christianity) as the main (and sometimes only) point of their game. Which means that all "christian games" I have played so far have sucked big time, because all they cared about was getting their point across, and not making a fun game. So I think you should focus on that aspect, write up a gd which is good, and put your cultural thing on top of it. Just dont try to sell you game on the basis that it is a cultural statement.

I´m not sure about Shenmue, but I think Project Ego would work just as well in China, as it seems to be a pretty artificial and fictional world anyway.

And please don´t insult the people here by saying that we are too lazy to do our research. If I feel that a point is relevant enough to the game, I will do research, but I won´t waste any time to put in points which I feel are not relevant to the game, and putting in statements, political or otherwise is not a point which I feel is important enough.

well actually im not trying to sell the wrong points, most of my games fall into the traditional modes with the exception of the characters themselves, and the ways they approach things.

Again its not like i come up to some publisher and go, "hey i got this game about Rapper X in the hood, he says yo to the ladies and they give him forties and all that stuff."

If anybody looked at my designs the ones that do deal with this topic are more of a reflection of the culture of today, any teen that is into mtv could relate whether or not they are black white, asian or whatever, I am basically saying do most game companies with their limited envioronments and seemingly being out of touch focus with their selling audience realize the changes in society? And when will they start making moves to attack their market directly instead of blindly throwing out games and seeing what works and everybody running off to make a clone of it.

Im saying you dont have to reinvent the wheel, what im saying is take todays mtv pop culture and have it reflect the lives of its audience, the ones who are buying the majority of those games.

Examples

I once again use something like Shenmue based in NYC of today

or something like the old movie the Warriors

Im talking about Evolution of the craft, who says that there couldnt be another Earthbound rpg but based in Los Angeles instead of fictional non city with no relatable characters

Im speaking of relevance in game design, do most companies even take a look at their audience, try to get to know them, try to make a product that their audience can relate with? So far the answer has been no.

And who says that good gameplay cant be added on to this?

I am speaking about topic matter

Barret in Final Fantasy 7 was a stereotype because he over did his blackness

But nobody in the black commmunity complained about the black characters in the grand theft auto games because offensive or not they didnt overdo it, and the world and what goes on in the game was relevant, we could relate to the situations which made it a more immersive experience, even if we werent criminals. But chances were some of us knew some.

quote: Original post by AngelStar
...And who says that good gameplay cant be added on to this?

Good gameplay should be the basis of a game (game play).

quote: But nobody in the black commmunity complained about the black characters in the grand theft auto games because offensive or not they didnt overdo it...

None of the characters in GTA are particularly noticeable because you operate on a macro scale and they exist on a micro scale. The selection of your avatar at the beginning of the game made absolutely no difference - even your pager messages didn''t change (choose the black girl and you''ll still get "Do you want your old job at the Deli/Pizza place back" and "Hey, this is Mom...").

While I generally agree with you that there is an uneven ethnic distribution of meaningful leads, I don''t blame designers for it. I state again that it is the responsibility of designers of "alternative ethnicity" to bring their types of characters to the public. Don''t go too far trying to find villains.

Man I was sure this topic would turn into a flame war, you have no idea how relieved I am to see how civilized everyone is. Just for the record, I''m half Chinese, and a mix of about half dozen european/Native American bloodlines. I''ve seen in my own design ideas that they''re based around me, because thats the most comfortable evironment I can work in. Ideas come more smoothly and its easier to expand upon ideas. The characters I create especially the main character is based off of me because I want to be able to relate to it. I''d be happy to see games with a variety of cultural backgrounds in it. From a designers perspective it could open up new worlds of possibility.