Abe in oddworld wasn''t white or asian....

Wavinator, I implore you...........close this post man!!! Things have(as they often do with issues of misplaced allegiance) taken a turn for the worse. Oluseyi, Krez why dont you two kids stop arguing. Angelstar change your handle to Devilstar now everyone poke yourselves......see that red stuff? Its blood we all bleed the same color. Damn, I bet I'm the only one who actually poked myself. MEDIC!!!!

Grow up people. We can't take a damn thing with us when we leave this plane. Prejudices or Seperatistces (<---new word) included.

J.C.
"TRUE BELIEF CANNOT BE THAT WHICH NARROWS ONES VISION" <--special edition of my profile signature, I think a few people have been overlooking it

Edited by - LifeBlood on October 17, 2001 11:25:17 PM

I agree with Oluseyi that Krez has misintepreted most of his posts.

quote:
quote:
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Btw, I don''t appreciate being called stupid.
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who does?

Krez said, "(b) you are too stupid to see that "racist" and "separatist" are the same thing." obviously showing how you have to failed to even know what you have said, much less show understanding of other people''s posts.

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quote:
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I don''t hate you. I don''t hate white people. I may not initially experience a warm glow of kinship when I meet a white person, but that cannot be construed as hate. I don''t even know the person!
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this implies that you DO feel a warm glow of kinship with non-white people, right? this is racism. sorry if i confused "racism" and "hate"...

See here, you''re playing with his words. Can you know for sure that he feels a warm glow of kinship with every other living blacks?

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quote:
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krez, you have continually insulted and accused me without taking the time to actually digest what I communicate and infer.
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how do you know that i haven''t digested what you said, and then let it pass through like all similar roughage? you know, it might be possible that i CAN understand your words, and just disagree?

If you COULD understand his words, then you just might be racist. If you aren''t a racist, then you haven''t understood his posts.


I''m not out to insult anyone here, I just want to point out that this thread shouldn''t continue if every post in misread in this way.

Hey Wav, I agree with Lifeblood. This topic is just taking up bandwidth now. We have gotten absolutely nowhere on this topic and it has really contributed to my game designs much. What say we just get back to something more constructive.

quote: Original post by krez
because a white person cannot stand up and say "i am a separatist" without scorn, i apply the same thing to you.

Okay. You do your thang. Just realize that I didn''t say any such thing myself , and your doing so defeats the purpose of intellectual discourse (to attempt to extract useful information from experience and observation, and try to analyze them from an objective position.)

quote: hmmm... i don''t remember calling you any such thing... but labeling is the basis of any language. "ball" is a label for a small round object we are all familiar with... "cat" is a label for the animal some people have as pets... what label exactly do you object to?

"Racist."

There''s a difference between a label as a term, and a label as a libelous association. For you to infer that you see no difference, or that you didn''t realize the context in which I used the term "label" strikes me as extremely contrived.

quote: well, you went on about how black and white people "cannot interact on equal footing"... why would you say such a thing if it didn''t apply to you?

Are you saying that we can no longer make analytical statements, or extrapolate our observations to general cases? You''re trying to build an argument on beliigerence and plain stubborness!

quote: the "mass" is actually made up of many individuals... and you are speaking as one person, not the "collective". i am not addressing the "collective", i am addressing you.

But I was speaking in terms of the masses. If you don''t wish to speak in those terms, then state so explicitly. Do you deny that the vast majority of "minorities" feel misrepresented or disenfranchised? Do you deny that the majority feel oppressed and subjugated even to this day? Well I try to provide an analysis as to why that is (because they do have less financial and political power and influence) and suggest a solution (leveling the playing field). Is that so outrageous that you can''t fathom the statement as being distinct from my daily interactions?

quote: you are an individual. whatever these "masses" you speak of believe, you still have free will. so, what you write reflects what you think (i am assuming that you are not the designated speaker of the black race).

This statement is so illogical. I have my own opinions and principles. However, I wish to examine a situation (which concerns me on both micro and macro levels) from a purely macro statements. Is it impossible that I may make statements that seem pursuant from the available observations, yet are opposed to my personal feelings? What, then, is the purpose of academic interaction, if every single statement we make must be a matter of personal, individual conviction?

quote: well, that was uncalled for.

I apologize. However, you cast equal amounts of aspersion on my claims. You consistently accuse me of being duplicious ("double standard"), but I can''t do the same to you? I''m not saying I did the right thing; I responded according to how I felt (severely offended).

quote: but you DO. you said yourself you have a problem interacting with people of other races (unless you just meant that all the other black people in your "collective" except you feel this way, but you just mentioned it for kicks).

You''re going to have to quote me on that (in context, too) because I said no such thing.

quote: this implies that you DO feel a warm glow of kinship with non-white people, right? this is racism. sorry if i confused "racism" and "hate"...

This borders on logical idiocy! So, if I don''t like you I automatically hate you? Is that what you''re saying? The problem seems to be that you forget (and I''m being charitable there) that these are not binary conditions; there is a vast gray area. I may be indifferent to you. I may see some black people and not like them either. I may see some white people and feel a mutual fellowship. Because I didn''t state all of that explicitly you immediately jump to the worst case conclusion and accuse me?

quote: and yes, discrimination exists... but by calling yourself a "separatist" you are condemning all white people, and a lot of them do not deserve it. if you were not, then you wouldn''t be a "separatist", you would be a person who hates discrimination.

Being a separatist and hating discrimination are not exclusive. In fact, while some admittedly profess and support separation because they are discriminatory, others support it because they believe that heterogenous entities will always have lower castes. Perhaps having a series of homogenous entities that interact with each other might be a viable solution, because each individual is coming from a position of proper representation, relative affluence and equity.

quote: i''m sorry if it is hard for me to glean your meaning from what you write... i missed the class about "the language of sociological discourse" i guess... and being a left-brainer i think that sociological-anything is a waste of time, a subject for people who cannot do math or understand biology.

Ooh! Intellectual discrimination! How nice.

quote: regardless, though, i have a decent command of the english language; if you want to use buzzwords from a worthless field of study feel free, but i must warn you that i will understand them to mean what they would assuming the normal english usage.

Doesn''t that strike you as inappropriate? You should be aware that the meanings of words change with context, especially in English - a mish-mash of diverse influences laced over an Anglo-Saxon backbone. Oh, my bad. Linguistics, anthropology and other such "worthless fields of study" don''t interest you.

quote: i''m sorry, i could have sworn you said, "I''ll concentrate my efforts on Africa... I just happen to live, work and currently go to school in the US, and identify with African American culture."

Yes, that''s what I said. Is that all I said? No. Could I have said more to better clarify things? Yes. So, I apologize to you.

quote: what i said was based on this; you certainly talked more highly about nigeria than the country that you are currently using for it''s schools and economy. please don''t call me ignorant when all i have to go on is your own words; if you don''t want to give people false impressions then don''t say things that you will later decide are untrue.

First, I didn''t speak more highly of Nigeria than of the US. The statement "I just happen to live, work and currently go to school in the US, and identify with African American culture" is with respect to me concentrating my efforts for equality on a location that doesn''t have a population bias - a homogenous society, at the macro level of "black" and "white." I thought context would clearly communicate this, but I guess I''ll just have to be more verbose and less controversial next time.

quote: how do you know that i haven''t digested what you said, and then let it pass through like all similar roughage? you know, it might be possible that i CAN understand your words, and just disagree?

Sure, it can be possible. But your replies have shown it not to be. I''ll admit that now that you point certain parts out, I can see how you might have misunderstood my intentions, but there are still huge gaps in how you got from "here" to "there" in other places.

quote: and you have made assumptions that i do not understand this conversastion. what you call "ignorance [about] socio-political issues" i call a "difference of opinion".

Okay. I apologize.

quote: i apologize if you took offense at something i said, but you must understand, i have lived the better part of my life hearing such unsound arguments from people who think i am a horrible person because i am white. i am sick an tired of having to hear crap about it, and being tagged as racist because it just isn''t valid.

So you tag others as racist. Hmm. That''ll change things.

I hope you''re starting to see my point. Fingering each other and namecalling solves nothing. We need to think "outside the box," because the call to just "love one another" and consider each other brethren has failed. 30 years have changed laws, but not attitudes on either side of the "divide."

quote: how have i insulted you? by pointing out the obvious? by applying the double-standard that i have to deal with to yourself? i didn''t agree with most of the things you have said, but i do not recall outright insulting you... can you give an example?

"...too stupid to realize it..."
"...racist..."
Did I apply the "double standard" to you? Did I call you names? If I actually put on you what I feel is put on me (as you have done), you''d be trippin''.

Maybe this "double standard" is all in your head... Sound familiar?

quote: ...and you are racis... oh wait, separatist...

Here we go, again.

quote: they are not being hated.

You really should get out more, you know. Actually watch how people respond to minorities; pay special attention to Arabs right now. It''s an educative experience.

quote: yes, there are still some racists in the world; there probably always will be. but, they can''t do anything about it anymore. there is no slavery. there is equal opportunity employers (much fairer than "affirmative action", that nice piece of legal racism). so why must you be separatist?

Ah, the "reverse racism" of affirmative action. Complex issue, can''t be dismissed in a line. Why''d you bring it up? Frustration? or are you letting out your real feelings? Was it really pertinent to this discussion?

I don''t "have" to be separatist - it''s not a "must." I believe in it because I think that it provides the most realistic chance of allowing people of different ethnicity to interact free of racism. Sure, one set of people may consider the other inferior, but there''s nothing they can do about it. There will be no dividing statistics of how many black people do this versus how many white, or how many black people don''t have this versus how many white do. There will be geographical sovereignity, political power and financial independence. Idealistic, but more plausible than eliminating discrimination by "letting go" or "talking it over."

quote: why can''t you just drop the whole skin color thing already?

Gee, I don''t know. I see it every time I look in the mirror? Or maybe it''s the condecending attitude I see towards blacks in the sciences? Perhaps it''s what some child said to my nephew or niece, since children have no inhibitions about saying what they feel - but their views at that age are purely those of their parents.

I''ll agree that there is excessive sensitivity on racial issues, but that''s the America we live in. You can''t just "drop it." America is divided by issues of race and ethnicity, and will be until everyone turns the same shade of human.

quote: Original post by krez
i never said racism is separatism.

Yet earlier:

quote: Original post by krez
...the reason it doesn''t bother you is (a) you are racist and like it, or (b) you are too stupid to see that "racist" and "separatist" are the same thing .

''Nuff said.

eh, i quit.
i do not agree with you.
i do not concede any points.
i am just getting a headache dealing with you. we will never agree, and this has turned into a battle of semantics.
so, i''m going back to game-related posts.
say what you will, i assure you it will not be read.
hey am i a separatist now? (i''m not being snotty, i mean that in a light hearted way)...

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Here''s an observation - I asked people to submit original character designs to me. Every artist''s first draft had a generic hairstyle. I specifically asked for more elaborate and unusual hairstyles. I got a french braid and assorted ponytails. I said ok, they''ve had their chance to be original, time for me to step in. Now I have cornrows, dredlocks, a mohawk, a person with curly/wavy hair. I went to my classes today and I saw 2 people with dredlocks, a person with an afro, 2 people with different kinds of mohawks, etc. Are my artists not choosing exotic hairstyles because they live in more culturally homogenous areas than I do? Or is there some other reason?

Alright, unfortunately it seems that some here can not have a mature discussion about this topic. Therefore, thread closed.

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Just waiting for the mothership...