Oh and in case it wasn't clear, this is how most people view the confederate flag

Oh and in case it wasn't clear, this is how most people view the confederate flag

That's how the media portrays it for the last couple months, must be true.

At best, it's a symbol of treason, and at worst, it's a mocking reminder to an entire ethnic group of that time people went to war so they could keep them as slaves. Consign it to the dustbin of history and move the fuck on.

Yes the makers of Dukes of Hazard were no better than nazis. Lel.

That's how the media portrays it for the last couple months, must be true.

No, that's how the rest of the civilised world sees it. The fact that some parts of the media happen to have it right in this instance is a happy coincidence.

Yes the makers of Dukes of Hazard were no better than nazis. Lel.

Good to see your posting philosophy of failing to comprehend what was written and then posting about it anyway extends outside of programming.

And no, the Dukes of Hazzard weren't Nazis. Congratulations, the low bar of not being the worst humans in the last hundred years is barely achieved...

I don't care that maybe members of your family fought and or even died defending freedom and right to self governance

I find myself with an overwhelming lack of concern for those who died defending the freedom to won slaves.

Again, that wasn't what the war was actually about. I'm glad the Union won - I'm not defending the war, I'm not defending slavery. But the war wasn't primarily about slavery - on both sides it wasn't primarily about slavery. Slavery was a big deal, but not everyone fighting was fighting for or against slavery, so much as for their homes, for state independence or preservation of the union. We can't just mark our side as noble heroes and everyone else as horrendous villains - things just aren't that simple.

There were large numbers that were fighting for slavery, and large numbers fighting against slavery - yes. But the Union wasn't fighting to abolish slavery - that wasn't their goal, though it became a political rallying point after the war already began. Likewise, the Confederacy wasn't fighting to preserve slavery - that wasn't their goal, though it was a motivator for a sizable number of people. The goal was independence - the same independance the USA wanted from Britain and won, the Confederacy wanted from the USA Federal Government. I'm glad they lost, but I think I can understand their motives.

I'm sure most Nazi soldiers were probably just ordinary guys too, but they don't get to fly their flag either because the Germans have the good sense and decency to be ashamed of them.

Sometimes banning it can be, "I just don't want to think about it - push it out of sight and mind". Banning can be the easy road out, to actually not mentally process the events on a per-individual level.

While I'm sure modern Germans want to move past it, and are tired of hearing about WW2, it needs to continue to be heavily taught in every nation to remind us that this is really how humans are (not just the Nazis) - the holocaust wasn't an abnormality, but a revealing of the depravity that already existed and still exists, and that given the right circumstances, would pop right back up again. Holocaust levels of horrendousness have happened hundreds of times - even nowadays - just at different scales. The Nazis were just as human as we are, and we are just as monstrous as they were. Hiding the symbols of the past makes it easier to forget that - though honoring the symbols of the past is the opposite extreme that also isn't good.

that wasn't what the war was actually about

I don't claim to be a civil war expert, but from what I've read, opinions are divided among historians on the importance of slavery as a casus belli. And no, I don't believe the Union was particularly standing up against it either.

None of which is really relevant in a modern context. Regardless of the reasons for the war, the flag has come to represent racism, even in the insidious guise of "states rights". You could try to start a movement to "take it back", but it's not really worth it IMO.

Sometimes banning it can be, "I just don't want to think about it - push it out of sight and mind". Banning can be the easy road out, to actually not mentally process the events on a per-individual level.

I wasn't talking about banning it, nor do I agree with the way that you can't even portray a swastika in context (see WW2 games in Germany for example). I'm simply saying that it shouldn't appear in any kind of state sanctioned material. Banning it wouldn't be helpful at all, as John Oliver points out, it's an easy way to recognise someone as a terrible person.

While I'm sure modern Germans want to move past it, and are tired of hearing about WW2, it needs to continue to be heavily taught in every nation... Hiding the symbols of the past makes it easier to forget that - though honoring the symbols of the past is the opposite extreme that also isn't good.

Agreed on all counts. But you don't see the swastika flying on state grounds in Germany.

That's how the media portrays it for the last couple months, must be true.

No, that's how the rest of the civilised world sees it. The fact that some parts of the media happen to have it right in this instance is a happy coincidence.

Yes the makers of Dukes of Hazard were no better than nazis. Lel.

Good to see your posting philosophy of failing to comprehend what was written and then posting about it anyway extends outside of programming.

And no, the Dukes of Hazzard weren't Nazis. Congratulations, the low bar of not being the worst humans in the last hundred years is barely achieved...

In UK they ban people from flying their own flag on their house or car because it's racist.

You just have dronelike propagandized vision, like most people today.

You have been raised to believe this stupid crap. No one thought dukes of hazard was a show that promoted slavery and the people who watched it (like me) were not neonazis. No one even gave it a thought, because it's just a recent manufactroversy of an issue that doesn't really exist.

If what you said were true this would have been a controversy for ages. It never really has been.

People who think Lincoln fought to abolish slavery are dead wrong. Lincoln did not want africans in USA at all, he wanted them gone.

You heard of 'Kansas Burning'? Probably not since you don't know anything else about this stuff.

Anyway I am related to one of the abolitionists who was a part of that. Ironically many abolitionists were also AGAINST the war. Also ironically, this neo-leftist manufactroversy cultural marxism pretend issue was a religious issue back then. The north was many, many times more religious than the south (another thing you won't know) and this was the basis of most abolitionism. They were not against slavery per se, but to them it was essential that any slave had all the same rights as free men - they could not be punished so much, they be allowed to marry who they like and not be used sexually and so on.

Leftist/statist systems would never have been abolitionist in a million years. All they do is try to limit people's freedoms.

The German situation is much different, but there is a difference between voluntarily not using something and outright banning it. I would say the Germans are better people for not wanting to fly it, but it is not a real issue because they are not allowed to do so. And it's also ridiculous (especially since they are the main enemy in half the games out there) that you can't have any swastikas on anything at all.

Some people (ie leftists) don't understand the idea of freedom of speech. Mainly their goal is to oppress the natives of the country and treat them as virtual slaves. That is part of the reason for the war in the first place though the huge thing most people are too ignorant to grasp was that it was largely about war debts and taxation, which led to the south footing most of the bill for the revolutionary war (even though it was mainly the north that had wanted the rebellion in the first place).

So if North Carolina wants to fly the swastika and put "adam and eve not adam and steve" on their flag it's fine by me. It would be really pathetic to do so but that's what democracy and freedom is all about. Some people like democracy until it gives a result they don't like, like wanting to secede from the country (which is far more valid today, than it was back then when the problems were not really that big and lots of effort was made by the north to negotiate).

It's the same thing in Iraq or for that matter France. You have democracy. Ok. So now you are mad that people make the 'wrong' choice and support Islam or marie le pen. Well, if muslims are not good enough, they should not have been allowed in. If the pro-france patriotic party that wants to get rid of immigrants is something you hate, then you yourself should not have moved to france I guess.

No, that's how the rest of the civilised world sees it.

Actually, to most of us outside the USA, it has no meaning at all.

Actually, to most of us outside the USA, it has no meaning at all.

Possibly in the non-English-speaking parts, but I'm outside the USA and everyone I know in NZ, Ireland, Australia, England and plenty of other places are aware of the flag and understand it's meaning.

Actually, to most of us outside the USA, it has no meaning at all.

Possibly in the non-English-speaking parts, but I'm outside the USA and everyone I know in NZ, Ireland, Australia, England and plenty of other places are aware of the flag and understand it's meaning.

What IS the meaning then.

If you reply with a statement claiming that it has any relation to racism to everyone, then congratulations, you are a bigot and applying rather unjust stereotypes to undeserving people.

Go look on YouTube, odds are you can find some racist bit of scum standing in front of the Stars and Stripes calling for the whole of the middle east to be nuked to glass to "Put an end to all Terrorism forever". And it isn't exactly a small number of people doing it either, hell a group of Americans threw what was nearly a full on riot targeting Canadian kids on a bus with the maple leaf shortly after Canada refused to follow the US into Iraq. So clearly all Americans must be violent xenophobes? Of course they're not, and it would be wrong to associate such things with the US flag, but of course it is perfectly fine to ignore the very large portion of people who support the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of freedom, independence, and self reliance, and just assume every last one of them is some racist redneck, along with assuming that everyone who fought for the South in the US Civil War supported slavery. (Surprise! Some didn't.)

What IS the meaning then.

If you reply with a statement claiming that it has any relation to racism to everyone, then congratulations, you are a bigot and applying rather unjust stereotypes to undeserving people.

I'm not applying any unjust stereotypes to anyone. I'm talking about a flag, the symbol itself.

It's meaning is slavery and racism. It's not a national flag, it's a symbol of racism, like the swastika. It once represented a group of people who fought for the rights to keep slaves. There might have been other reasons, but that was one of them and there's no looking past that.

I grew up in Ireland in the 80s, to me the Union Jack was a symbol of British imperialism and oppression, but I understand that it's the flag of a nation and doesn't represent the worst parts of Englands history. The confederate flag is nothing but the worst parts of US history.

Go look on YouTube, odds are you can find some racist bit of scum standing in front of the Stars and Stripes calling for the whole of the middle east to be nuked to glass to "Put an end to all Terrorism forever". And it isn't exactly a small number of people doing it either, hell a group of Americans threw what was nearly a full on riot targeting Canadian kids on a bus with the maple leaf shortly after Canada refused to follow the US into Iraq. So clearly all Americans must be violent xenophobes? Of course they're not, and it would be wrong to associate such things with the US flag, but of course it is perfectly fine to ignore the very large portion of people who support the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of freedom, independence, and self reliance, and just assume every last one of them is some racist redneck, along with assuming that everyone who fought for the South in the US Civil War supported slavery. (Surprise! Some didn't.)

False dichotomy and irrelevant. And enough with the "rebel spirit" bollocks. It's highly questionable as to whether the confederate flag ever stood for "freedom, independence, and self reliance" and even if it did once, it certainly doesn't anymore.

If you fought for the south in the civil war, by definition, you supported slavery. That may not have been your intention, but that was the outcome. I'm sure there are people fighting for ISIS who just want freedom, independence and self reliance. They're still supporting torture, oppression and misogyny.