I think the Ireland, England match would disagree with you

Meh this was a minor disturbance compared to the trouble they get in Italy, Spain or Russia.

The violence at the England / Ireland match by the way was actually organised by combat-18 which are a right wing racist hate group.

As others have said the confederate flag (All of them really) Now adays is used to symbolize the state vs federal (Don't tread on me) issue. Hence why the dukes of hazard have the confederate flag on their car, they don't listen to "The man". Although now, they're replacing the confederate flag with the American flag on new dukes of hazard merchandise.

A friend of mine was escorted out of Birmingham city centre by a fleet of police cars because he had a st george cross painted on the roof of his mini and the police deemed it to be an offensive symbol.

uh... That's just common sense. Most of Birmingham's urban area's heavily Islamic, and the area tends to react very badly to imagery that doesn't fit their narritive.

uh... That's just common sense. Most of Birmingham's urban area's heavily Islamic, and the area tends to react very badly to imagery that doesn't fit their narritive.

No it isn't. There is a large islamic comunity but not as much as where I'm from (Blackburn) and the majority are "westernised" muslims. Most of who wear the England flag themselves when theres an international match on.

ridiculous stuff[/quote]uh... That's just common sense. Most of Birmingham's urban area's heavily Islamic, and the area tends to react very badly to imagery that doesn't fit their narritive.

Woah. And I thought that I lived in a country with a stupid legislative and executive. But you guys got it just as bad.

This is almost like what this socialist mayor said in Passau a week or two ago. After teenage girls in bikinis had been humped by some poor and innocent asylum seekers who are not used to see so much naked skin, they're now forbidding girls to wear skirts at highschool because a refuge for another 200 poor asylum seekers is being built next to the school, and we wouldn't want to send open invitations and wrong signals that may lead to misunderstandings.

Heck yeah, we definitively need to pay more attention.

ridiculous stuff

uh... That's just common sense. Most of Birmingham's urban area's heavily Islamic, and the area tends to react very badly to imagery that doesn't fit their narritive.

Woah. And I thought that I lived in a country with a stupid legislative and executive. But you guys got it just as bad.

Also care to cite some reliable source that states that everyone who fought for the South in the US Civil War directly supported slavery. You are over simplifying a highly complex issue, and being as bigoted and closed minded as the people you're complaining about.

ChaosEngine, care to cite some reliable source stating that the Confederate Battle flag is and only is a symbol of racism? You are giving it that label, and a large number of racist bigots may indirectly give it that label, but to many others it stands for rather different things.

No problem.

However, the fact remains that the Confederate battle flag has long since become the pre-eminent symbol of the Confederacy and what it stood for, and across the span of several decades it has been co-opted by segregationist and white supremacist groups such as the Dixiecrats, the KKK, and the Aryan Nation.....
The Sons of Confederate Veterans may sincerely object to the Confederate battle flag’s use by Neo-Nazis, skinheads, and other extremist groups, ....But just as with the swastika, it’s likely to be a very, very long time before that symbol can be reclaimed and regarded in anything approaching a neutral manner

How about another one?

It is no accident that Confederate symbols have been the mainstay of white supremacist organizations, from the Ku Klux Klan to the skinheads. They did not appropriate the Confederate battle flag simply because it was pretty. They picked it because it was the flag of a nation dedicated to their ideals, i.e., “that the negro is not equal to the white man.” The Confederate flag, we are told, represents heritage, not hate. But why should we celebrate a heritage grounded in hate, a heritage whose self-avowed reason for existence was the exploitation and debasement of a sizeable segment of its population?

And another one.

We can keep thinking it's a coincidence that such blatant acts of structural racism are happening in states that have an affinity for the Confederate flag. Or, in the wake of recent racially charged conversations and concerns, we can say a nice, big farewell to this scary symbol that represents all things awful.

I can keep going, but I don't really need to. The flag is a symbol. Empirically, it has no meaning. 2 lines of the same length bisecting at 90 degrees and then bent 90 degrees again .... that's harmless! It's just geometry after all. But the flag has a history and a cultural significance, and it's negative aspects outweigh any positive aspects by an order of magnitude.

I don't know why you continue to defend it. Again, I'm not even saying it should be banned, simply that it shouldn't be flown on state grounds.

Also care to cite some reliable source that states that everyone who fought for the South in the US Civil War directly supported slavery. You are over simplifying a highly complex issue, and being as bigoted and closed minded as the people you're complaining about.

L Spiro's already done that, but it's not rocket science. The south supported slavery. If you literally went to war for them, you supported slavery. That might not have been your intention, but it was certainly the outcome. Your reasons don't matter, any more than a Nazi soldier who just really liked Hitlers vegetarianism.

Finally, I have zero problems being bigoted towards racists (and you can include homophobes, homeopaths, creationists and climate deniers in that list too).

I'm not saying all southerners are racist, I'm saying that people who choose to fly the confederate flag are racist, regardless of their reasons. If you fly it, you are basically saying "fuck you, black people. I don't give a shit what your ancestors went through".

And yeah, people are entitled to say that, but I have the right to call them racist assholes because of it.

No problem.

The quote you chose is a greta example of cherry picking. Let's get some other quotes from the same page:

MYTH: The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.

FACT: The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that vilify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.

MYTH: The Confederate Flags are an authorized symbol of Aryan, KKK and hate groups.

FACT: Quite the contrary. These despicable organizations such as the KKK and Aryans have taken a hallowed piece of history, and have plagued good Southern folks and the memories of fine Confederate Soldiers that fought under the flag with their perverse agenda. IN NO WAY does the Confederate Flag represent hate or violence. Heritage groups such as the [Sons of Confederate Veterans] battle daily the damage done to a proud nation by these hate groups. The SCV denounces all hate groups, and pridefully boast HERITAGE – NOT HATE.

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways — as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two “good ol’ boys” who were “never meanin’ no harm.”

So really, that article goes completely against the point you were trying to make. The reality of the situation is that the flag represents many things to many people.

If you fly it, you are basically saying "fuck you, black people. I don't give a shit what your ancestors went through".

In that case, wearing a Christian cross is like saying "fuck you muslims, I don't give a shit that crusades were launched against your ancestors," And flying an English flag is like saying "Fuck you France, I don't give a shit avout all the atrocities my ancestors commited against your ancestors." Just like flying a Spanish flag is like saying "Fuck you South America..." and so on, and so on. Nearly every national or religious symbol has been used at some point in history as a rallying point against someones ancestors. If that's all you choose to see when you see the symbol, then it says more about you than it does about the symbol.

Interesting that you accuse me of cherry picking when you're quoting the points that the article itself is questioning.

Let's take the full text of some of those quotes:

MYTH: The Confederate Battle Flag represents racism today.

FACT: The Confederate Battle Flag today finds itself in the center of much controversy and hoopla going on in several states. The cry to take this flag down is unjustified. It is very important to keep in mind that the Confederate Battle Flag was simply just that. A battle flag. It was never even a National flag, so how could it have flown over a slave nation or represented slavery or racism? This myth is continued by lack of education and ignorance. Those that vilify the Confederate Battle Flag are very confused about history and have jumped upon a bandwagon with loose wheels.

which is immediately followed by

Now we move into an area of deliberate obfuscation: The fact that the Confederate battle flag was never the official national flag of the Confederacy is a technical historical aspect which is of little import today — that flag was nevertheless used by officially sanctioned Army and Navy units that fought in the service of the Confederate government, its Southern Cross design was incorporated into the Confederate national flag, and that banner was popularly recognized and regarded at the time as a symbol of the Confederate nation by the people who lived there. If it is considered a symbol of slavery and white supremacy by many people today, in part that’s because it did indeed represent a government, military, and people who fought to preserve those aspects of their society.

emphasis mine.

Then you quote:

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways — as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two “good ol’ boys” who were “never meanin’ no harm.”

which is again followed by

It is true that for several decades after the Civil War, the Confederate battle flag was not widely perceived as a negative symbol. Its use was largely limited to historical ceremonies associated with veterans’ events and war memorials; the flag did not become the symbol most prominently associated with the Confederacy until several decades after the Civil War ended, and it was not widely perceived as a politically polarizing symbol until it was appropriated by segregationist politicians and groups in the middle of the twentieth century.

However, the fact remains that the Confederate battle flag has long since become the pre-eminent symbol of the Confederacy and what it stood for, and across the span of several decades it has been co-opted by segregationist and white supremacist groups such as the Dixiecrats, the KKK, and the Aryan Nation. Certainly one can be a racist or a white supremacist without associating himself with “Southern Pride” or a Confederate battle flag, but for better or worse, no one group is any more “authorized” to use the Confederate battle flag as their symbol than another: the Confederate government and its military forces ceased to exist 150 years ago and therefore have no say or control over the usage of the Southern Cross.

Sorry, who was cherry picking again?

In that case, wearing a Christian cross is like saying "fuck you muslims, I don't give a shit that crusades were launched against your ancestors," And flying an English flag is like saying "Fuck you France, I don't give a shit avout all the atrocities my ancestors commited against your ancestors." Just like flying a Spanish flag is like saying "Fuck you South America..." and so on, and so on. Nearly every national or religious symbol has been used at some point in history as a rallying point against someones ancestors.

Except it's not the same at all. No-one perceives the English or Spanish flags like that. As I already said, there are certainly good and bad things associated with almost every national flag. Same for religious symbols (as much as I dislike religion in general).

But still no-one has said what the confederate flag stood for apart from slavery. Just because some idiots used it for more benign reasons since doesn't wipe away where it comes from.

If that's all you choose to see when you see the symbol, then it says more about you than it does about the symbol.

Tell that to black people living in South Carolina.

Ok, honest question for all the flag defenders: do you think that the Germans should fly a swastika? And no, this isn't godwin, it's directly relevant.
The swastika actually has a better case than the confederate flag. The confederate flag never stood for anything other than the southern rebellion, but the swastika is a much older symbol from a completely different culture that was co-opted by an evil regime. Why should they have to give it up?

The answer is that the Germans have the decency to be ashamed of the Nazis.

They can pull the sell of the confederate flag, but no state can ban the public showing of a flag as it is protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution. So all this uproar is rather pointless in the end.

Also, yeah I can show the Swastika as it existed 5000 (some sites say 3000) years before the Nazis. The Nazi flag is a black swastika tilted 45 degrees in a white circle on red background. The Swastika in and of itself isn't evil or a symbol of hate and is in fact considered a sacred symbol in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and Odinism. From what I've read from searching it, the Swastika adorns temples in India and Indonesian countries.