Also, yeah I can show the Swastika as it existed 5000 (some sites say 3000) years before the Nazis. The Nazi flag is a black swastika tilted 45 degrees in a white circle on red background. The Swastika in and of itself isn't evil or a symbol of hate and is in fact considered a sacred symbol in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, and Odinism. From what I've read from searching it, the Swastika adorns temples in India and Indonesian countries.

Either way, the message that everybody will take home if you swing this flag (the 5,000 year old one, or the 80 year old one) will be the same. 90% of all people don't know the difference anyway.

In Germany, you will find yourself in court because thanks to the US americans' fear of The Nazis (communists are bad already, but the Nazis...), the symbol, its possession and its display in whatever form is outlawed.

There have been cases a decade or two ago of retired (some say retarded, be that as it may) people owning airplane models of Fokkers or Messerschmidts, which, of course, had the swastika on the rudder and on the wings. Well, of course, that's just how that kind of airplane looked like, and so does the model. Now it's debatable whether you really have to fly that particular model of a winged death-bringer, but making it a capital crime is just as ridiculous.

What's bad with the swastika is not the symbol or the fact that the Nazis used it. Or maybe that some old fart who dreams of the good old days when he was a fighter pilot (that is, when he was "important") has it on his model plane.

What's bad is that the people who used it back then and the ones who are using it again at this very moment are dangerously primitive and dangerously ready for violence. They're the kind of people who will do the kind of thing like put a burning cross in your front yard (except unlike the wannabe-KKKs that I've met in the US, they'd actually enter a house and kill your family, or they'll find your grandfather's grave, topple the tombstone and shit on the grave -- very courageous and respectful indeed). They're the kind of people neither you nor the law can protect against because they come at night when you don't expect it, and they wear masks. And they're gone when the police arrives, and nobody will admit seeing anything (knowing that if they do, they're next).

If you think about it, they're poor bastards, and their "rites" are pitiful. You find the Nazi-type (and KKK type, and ultra-left type) where there are no jobs or only lousy jobs, and where there is no perspective. What they need, what they want, is someone to blame for their falure and someone to blame for their being unhappy with their situation. And of course, some good old ultra-violence, aiming tolchocks unreasonly (to quote Malcolm McDowel).

Right. Let them name their children Sturmheil Siegbald (this one made it to the newspaper a few weeks ago, for real) if they want, let them wear brown poofy trousers and sing their grandfathers' songs. But it stops being ridiculous once innocent people are getting hurt -- and that usually doesn't take long.

The problem is that waving the flag gives all that idiocy and senseless hatred and violence a reason and a justification. Even if you are not a racist redneck (or a nazi) --- by waving the flag ("their flag") you signal to them, and to other people, that you support them. Which strengthens their cause, more than you might be aware of.

Do you really think the average German shoemaker or baker enjoyed the idea of being away from home for 3-4 years to invade Poland and march to Stalingrad during winter? Do you really think the average school teacher or train driver gave a fuck about whether "his people" was the superior race or whatever? But once you have 15-20% of the population breaking and entering the houses of those people who don't support them, and another 25% swinging the banner (even though "they don't mean it") you had better swing the banner, too. It's not like you have much of a choice after a certain point. And yeah, you're going to march to Russia as well, whether you like it or not (even if you don't know a single Russian who has wronged you).

Of course, the other extreme (like we have in Germany now) is just as bad. Oh no, we have to please everybody lest someone thinks bad of us or even calls us Nazis. The Greeks have been lying all the time when they said they'd pay back, but now they call us Nazis, so let's give them a few billions more. Let's offer asylum to another few thousand criminals from Tunisia and Syria, no wait, poor fugitives. They're not criminals, but engineers and doctors. That's why they threw their passports into the mediterranean sea, too. And that's why none of them can show any kind of diploma for being an engineer or such. Let's give them more money than the average worker gets (in addition to free shelter and food). Surely nobody who has to work all day in a lousy job will mind that they enjoy their day at the public swimming pool, to which they -- of course -- have unlimited free access. After all, they're all good people, and so poor. Hey, you know, it's not their fault if they molest girls. Just why do those girls have to wear skirts, it's their own fault if they are so provokative.

No, these poor people don't steal, how dare you say that. The number of thefts only went up by 10% since those 200 people arrived in this 20,000-inhabitants town. 200/20,000 and 10/100 is totally the same proportion. Oh wow, they don't like the food that we give them, no problem we'll just give them whatever they want. Right, they don't like our religion either, so...

That kind of cowardish, bigot, self-tainting behavior which is stereotypical for every government during the last [at least] 40 years (and being taught at school) constantly feeds hatred even among normal people who normally don't have much of a reason of hating anyone. What nobody seems to realize, it directly or indirectly feeds the ranks of those who swing the swastika flag, and it will one day inevitably lead to a violent ultra-right swingback.

There is no doubt that the Nazis did wrong, but so what. It's not like the British or the French didn't (Hugenots, anyone?). It's not like the ancestors of the current population of the USA didn't genocide the rightful owners of their country and built their nation with the blood of the black man. It's not like the Turks didn't genocide millions in the early 20th century. It's not like the <insert any other nation> didn't do alike.

At some point, you just have to say "Yes, this was bad and I'm sorry for the people who suffered, but that happened when even my grand parents were only teenagers. It is not my fault, and I am not guilty of it, and I don't feel guilty".

In Germany, you will find yourself in court because thanks to the US americans' fear of The Nazis (communists are bad already, but the Nazis...), the symbol, its possession and its display in whatever form is outlawed.

Was that imposed by the USA? I thought that was self censorship on Germany's part.

What's bad is that the people who used it back then and the ones who are using it again at this very moment are dangerously primitive and dangerously ready for violence. They're the kind of people who will do the kind of thing like put a burning cross in your front yard (except unlike the wannabe-KKKs that I've met in the US, they'd actually enter a house and kill your family, or they'll find your grandfather's grave, topple the tombstone and shit on the grave -- very courageous and respectful indeed). They're the kind of people neither you nor the law can protect against because they come at night when you don't expect it, and they wear masks. And they're gone when the police arrives, and nobody will admit seeing anything (knowing that if they do, they're next).

Whoa, wait, what? Germany has problems with Neo nazis? Any sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I just have never heard of this before.

In Germany, you will find yourself in court because thanks to the US americans' fear of The Nazis (communists are bad already, but the Nazis...), the symbol, its possession and its display in whatever form is outlawed.

Was that imposed by the USA? I thought that was self censorship on Germany's part.

Yes, but we don't have any fear of Nazis. We weren't occupied by them - they never landed on our soil. We don't ban their depiction. We have them plastered all over the media, and often times in comedic light. Even during WW2, they were often portrayed comedically.

We casually make comments like 'grammar nazi' in everyday conversation, which can offend nearby Germans if they aren't used to our casual (and occasionally disrespectful) way of speaking.

Heck, we left hundreds of known Nazis in charge of West Germany after Germany was defeated.

We originally banned Nazi symbolism and material in Germany, to try to keep the ideology from being propagated. Attempting to contain something and 'fearing' it are different things.

At some point, you just have to say "Yes, this was bad and I'm sorry for the people who suffered, but that happened when even my grand parents were only teenagers. It is not my fault, and I am not guilty of it, and I don't feel guilty".

Yes, but that must be followed up with studying the worst of what has happened, and then acknowledging that we are no better than the worst Nazis, and given the right circumstances and time, we can just as easily commit similar atrocities, or just as easily turn a blind eye to others doing so.
"circumstances" is not a lack of education - there were some really intelligent Nazis.

"circumstances" is not a lack of food or resources - there were many wealthy who supported the Nazis.

"circumstances" is not a bad upbringing. These are all excuses to shift the blame onto others.

"circumstances" is: How much do we allow hatred in the privacy of our own thoughts? And how much do people agree with us and encourage us when we begin to voice it aloud? When we get approval for doing what's actually in our heart to do, and when we think we can get away with it, that's when the hatred that already exists gets manifested in actual actions.

It 'already exists' because we've been tolerating it in our heads for years. The more we allow the tiny thoughts, the tiny actions, the stronger that specific anti-semitism, racism, sexism, whatever, becomes in us. Actions don't come out of a void - they come out of ourselves, and we are the sum of our thoughts and actions.

People think they control their own actions. That's only partially accurate. Their actions today are the result of thoughts and actions from yesterday, and only today's thoughts and actions can dictate tomorrow's behavior. When people react without thinking, or quickly make a decision, that's coming from previous tiny decisions made throughout our lives. When we're in full control of our thinking, full control of our actions, we can behave decently on the surface. But we're not always in full control of ourselves, and when we lose control, it's what's under the surface, under the facade, that really comes out - and that's who we really are. It's our worst moments we need to be aware of, not our best. It's when we're lynching an escaped slave, not when we're enjoying apple cider with our children. It's when we're pushing jews and gypsies into furnaces, and stomping on their faces, not when painting a picture or laughing with friends over a political joke.

It doesn't matter if we "always seemed like a nice person" on the surface, and our bosses say we are "a hard worker, I never suspected anything like this". It doesn't matter if our family says, "I don't believe he'd ever do something like that! That can't be my son!", and our teacher says, "he always got good grades and helped the other students.". It's the eventually, when we cut of someone's head and eat their flesh, or walk into their church and attend their bible study for over an hour before shooting them, or blow ourselves up with a suicide vest in the hope of "earning" salvation for our relatives. It's the moments when we are at our worst, not the months when we can successfully hide it. We are skilled at hiding our real nature, hiding it even from ourselves, because the lie that we are decent is more pleasing than the truth that we are just as bad as the Nazis.

Yes, the Germans being told they are superior race helps, and the constant propaganda of telling everyone jews are scum makes it easier. But it's not the cause.

Yes, Islam calling for the killing or enslaving of anyone (and especially jews) who don't forcibly convert helps. But it's not the cause.

Yes, a culture of your grandfather and uncles and brothers and fathers calling blacks 'niggers', and speaking about wanting to lynch them or 'putting them in their place' creates an atmosphere where you feel you'll get approval for doing it, but it's not the ultimate source of our actions.

The lies help, the culture helps, but ultimately it's our own thoughts - the tiny everyday ones - it's our own small actions here and there, that lead to us being Nazis, or KKK, or jihadists, or rapists, or corrupt officials, or whatever else - privately or nationally.

We casually make comments like 'grammar nazi' in everyday conversation, which can offend nearby Germans if they aren't used to our casual (and occasionally disrespectful) way of speaking.

I lived with a German for a while, sound bloke who was in the UK doing a degree in German History; anyway one day we were talking and he came out with a great line - "I thought about joining the army when I was younger, but then I realised we always seem to be on the wrong side in wars"

Well, what with the skulls on everything....

Whoa, wait, what? Germany has problems with Neo nazis? Any sources to back that up? Not that I don't believe you, I just have never heard of this before.

Among the things that couldn't be kept under the rug in recent times were e.g. the arsen attacks on fugutive shelters (which were quite publicly visible) and of course the NSU trial (which is pretty much impossible to conceal due to the probable involvement of the secret service, the links to a police woman murder, and the sheer unbearable attitude of everybody involved in the trial).

The NSU trial is a prime example of how fucked up Germany is. It started off with some presumably hate-inspired killings of Turks and Greeks. Ironically, all victims were the kind of foreigner of whom everybody would have said "why, he was a good fellow, working hard". They weren't the type of social parasite which you might legitimately despise. They were people who came here legally, owned a permanent residence permit, worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes, spoke German, etc.

So, half a decade later, after a long investigation which targetted the families and the Turkish gambling/money laundry mafia, and a money collector service, after employing a profiler and a medium (yes, a medium, no joke!), the special unit turns to Turkish nationalists based on some "Mehmet" guy's testomony. Nobody has ever seen that "Mehmet", but hey, that's OK.

Finally, the police discovers, by pure coincidence, the gun used in the killings in a burned-down house in Zwickau. It becomes more and more likely (and more and more undeniable) that the murders were the doing of a particular group of Nazis who had lived in that house.

Five people are finally identified. Exemplary Nazi types. Two commit suicide, three are arrested. Funnily, they only ever show those three on TV (probably trying to make it seem like there's only three of them). They're so obviously guilty as can be.

Turns out the BND was on the scene and was well-aware of the murders, but didn't prevent them. It is being speculated, and later it is revealed that there exists footage, that a BND informer met some of the perpetrators in a cafe. However, this is disputed. It was pure coincidence that he was at that cafe at the same time every time. Later, it turns out that very same guy is our "Mehmet".

At some point, it is being speculated that the BND even warned the perpetrators of the arrest, but that is being disputed, too.

Fast forward. Trial starts, enter the Turkish media, complaining that they didn't get enough seats in the first row, which is an insult. WTF? A new court session is needed.

Next, some Turkish minister (or whatever he is) complains that there is a crucifix in the court room, which is not acceptable. Happens that every court room in Munich has a crucifix, it's an ultra-traditional ultra-christian city. Guess what, they took it off so they wouldn't offend that bugger. I mean, seriously, if you don't like how our court rooms look like, just fuck off and stay home. Imagine you have a trial over in the US, say the Missoula student exchange kill trial, and I pick up the phone and tell you "Hey Yo! That stinking stars and stripes banner hurts my eyes, take it off".

Two years later, the main villain (a woman) has repeatedly fired defendants (and defendants have asked to be freed of their duty) and had the trial start over again every time. Seriously, if I was the judge, I wouldn't accept that game. Now she has three defendants paid from my tax money (yes, three defendants for one person!) and she claims that they dislike her and don't work properly and whatnot. At every court session, she comes up with some other bullshit like headaches, sudden illness, nausea, toothaches...

If I was the judge, after the third or fourth time, I'd simply say: "OK, I think we have seen and heard enough, I will proceed with the sentence". But no, in Germany, this woman can terrorize the court indefinitely.

If she is ever convicted, she'll be in prison for life, which means at most 15 years (thank you, SPD!) and with good conduct less than half that. Minus the time in investigative custody, of course.

Yes, but ... (long paragraph)

control actions... thoughts...

...

[German] ideology, propaganda, etc.

First, I must object to the idea that it's a "German ideology", other European nations were none less antisemitic (the only difference is, they didn't lose the war). Take the French and the Dreyfuss affair for example. Guy was proven innocent because the real perpetrator was caught in the act of another identical crime and confessed. But hey, a jew in prison is a good jew, so let's keep him there. They sent him to Devil's island until Zola who had a great public visibility "accused" the case on the front page of Le Figaro. Zola then had to flee the country because he was a "traitor". When he was granted amnesty 4 years later and came back to Paris, he was murdered had a fatal accident.

Second, the coming of the Nazi regime was well-anticipated, if not staged by the allied forces after World War I. Indeed, other than Germany who were kind of obligated by their given word after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand (they could probably have backed out somehow, but the slaughterer Schlieffen was happy about a good reason for war, and Wilhelm was too busy on his sailboat...), France had no real reason to enter World War I at all. Neither had England. Schlieffen would probably have invaded France anyway (being the kind of person that he was) but they had no real reason to believe that or to declare war ahead of time, anyway. They did because people like the great Georges Clémenceau with his gigantic ego couldn't forget that they lost big time when they tried invading Germany in 1870. Big disgrace, time for vengeance.

Jean Jaurès, one of the most intelligent people of his time, spoke against entering war in the national assembly. He basically said that even if France did win, the price would be so high that it would be a loss. How true he spoke. An hour later, he was shot in the head in the now-famous Café du Croissant by Raoul Villain (yes, his name was really "villain"). And France declared war. Jaurès' murderer was released innocent from custody 4 years later because France had won the war.

In Versailles, Georges Clémenceau wanted (verbatim) "Germany on its knees". Against all reason and against all council (except for Wilson, who welcomed the idea), he wanted to completely destroy the German economy and let them bleed. He was told that such an approach would cause great grief and would effectively only leave them one choice, another war. Clémenceau, ignorant as he was, insisted. The entire treaty was not just inacceptable by all means, but it was also a deliberate insult (also the entire protocol).

Thus came what had been predicted. Hitler rose from the ashes of the great depression after having tried a coup d'état in Munich and having spent some years in prison in the same city (there he wrote his book). Since force had not worked, he now took over by giving people an ideology and doing good things -- suddenly people had jobs and had to eat, they had a perspective. It was all the jews' fault, wasn't it.

Everybody must have seen where this was going, but nobody did anything. To anyone who had read his book, and you can assume the counsellors of every government certainly did, it must have been obvious what a crazy person he was and what his final goal would be.

Then he invaded the Sudentenland, and everybody in Europe held their breath. Should they do something? Should they stop that nutter while they can? Well, not sure, it's just the Sudentenland, who gives a fuck. We're not going to war for them, are we. Let's rather prepare for a real war at large scale, which is soooo much more fun.

So they signed the Munich Agreement, which basically said "Dear Adolf, please go ahead and take the Sudetenland, in exchange you'll leave us in peace, OK?". Chamberlain coming home saw the applauding crowd and said "Those fools", then turned to them and said "peace with honour". Churchill replied "You had the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour and you will have war". He knew, of course, what would happen. As did Chamberlain. And they let it happily happen.

That's how World War II came to be.

It's a very lucky thing that Charles de Gaulle was much more intelligent than Clémenceau. He acknowledged that those two wars (he witnessed them both!) were the most terrible thing to happen to Europe, and that such a thing must never happen again. Thus he insisted that everything be rebuilt as quicky as possible after the war and that there be a union and a process of fraternisation.

The EU trade zone and later the European Union that we have today is the child of this idea.

First, I must object to the idea that it's a "German ideology", other European nations were none less antisemitic (the only difference is, they didn't lose the war).

I wasn't referring to anti-semitism - I don't think that was the goal of denazification, and I agree anti-semitism exists in many nations (including Russia and the USA). I think de-nazification was the USA and Britain, Russia, and France wanting to stomp out Fascism (not anti-semitism) so things don't lead to another war, recognizing Fascism as a significant nationalizing and militarizing force that posed threats to European stability if it was permitted to reestablish itself. Fascism is what I meant by "ideology".

Nor was I suggesting that Germany bears sole responsibility for the state the nation was in before WW2. Britain and France, and others, played major roles in starting both WW1 and WW2. I've read alot about WW2 and understand how the western influence and the massive war reparation debt from WW1 led to the appeal of the Nazi party coming to power; but my WW1 knowledge is basically just Extra History's videos, which I enjoyed but which only give parts of the picture.

When Jon Stewart is against you, you've already lost :D

Different people have different interpretations of the Tennessee Battle Flag ... why, after 152 years, are folks reacting to the flag as if it's now worse than the Nazi State Flag ?

Why not?

By the way, people aren't "suddenly" reacting to the flag "after 152 years." There have nearly always been challenges of the flag's validity, symbolism and impropriety on government property. What is happening now is that recent events in the US have presented an opportunity to cast the meaning of this flag to anyone beyond local white southern majorities in stark relief.

Here's a small sampling of recent legal challenges and prohibitions on the display and/or use of the Confederate Battle Flag that a trivial search brought up:
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140AB2444
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/20/north-carolina-confederate-flags/1716715/
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2015/0618/Supreme-Court-Texas-can-refuse-to-issue-Confederate-flag-license-plates-video
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/230195052_STATE_DISPLAYS_OF_CONFEDERATE_SYMBOLS_LEGAL_CHALLENGES_AND_THE_POLITICAL_QUESTION_DOCTRINE

Absolutely. The Confederacy was founded upon the southern states' "right" to continue the use of slavery.

Somewhat, but that's a bit of an oversimplification. While slavery was a major part of it, State vs Federal control was a major part and outlawing of slavery was more of a final straw for the South.

No. That's revisionist history you've been told for years, but it's not true. Here's an article that excerpts several states' Declaration of Causes of Secession, as well as editorials and letters from notable publications and luminaries in the South. The cause was slavery, which was viewed as a moral imperative.

"States' Rights" was a public relations invention to maintain foreign support as international sentiment turned against slavery, and quite a few Southern intellectuals kicked against it as a concession to the moral superiority of the Northerners' argument.

So… let's get rid of the symbol. It belongs in a museum, nowhere else.