Question to the Christians:

Let's say an individual is given up for adoption at an early age and throughout his life he goes from abusive foster home to abusive foster home. By the time he's 18, he has the all the makings of a hard criminal. This person does hard drugs, robs, bribes, carjacks, etc. Anything against the law, you name it, he does it. Eventually this person gets so whacked out on drugs that he goes out and kills 50 people in cold blood...for no real reason.

5 years later on death row, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to accept Jesus. Assume he is sincere in his transition. Does he get into heaven over the people who simply do not follow the Biblical God?

Although I'm not a christian, I might shed some light on this.

First let me say that hell has been closed since my little sister got tired of torturing humans (just like human children torture insects for fun, my little sister used to torture humans for fun). I don't know exactly what triggered this change of mind. Perhaps she just grew older. Perhaps the incessant "yes, torture me for my sins, yes, please hurt me, punish me hard!" got on her nerves.

But let's assume that your individual was executed at a time where my little sister was still active. Then it would have depended on his subconscious wish: If he wished to be punished for his crimes, he would have gone to hell. Otherwise he would simply have been buried.

One exception though: My sister might have claimed him for her amusement; then he would have gone to hell as well. She sometimes did that.

Hope that helps,
God

P.S: My little sister now collects plush firetrucks.

[quote name='Fl4sh' timestamp='1297971924' post='4775545']
Question to the Christians:

Let's say an individual is given up for adoption at an early age and throughout his life he goes from abusive foster home to abusive foster home. By the time he's 18, he has the all the makings of a hard criminal. This person does hard drugs, robs, bribes, carjacks, etc. Anything against the law, you name it, he does it. Eventually this person gets so whacked out on drugs that he goes out and kills 50 people in cold blood...for no real reason.

5 years later on death row, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to accept Jesus. Assume he is sincere in his transition. Does he get into heaven over the people who simply do not follow the Biblical God?

Different denominations will give you different answers. What I believe is that God will judge you based on the laws that you know, and how you are raised. If a parent fail to teach his/her child morals, then that child's transgressions will be put on their parent's shoulders, because the child wouldn't have committed transgressions if he/she knew better. So you could say in that situation, the abusive foster homes will be accountable for the man's crimes. But if the man does know better, then the transgression is on his shoulders.

I also don't believe that there's only one heaven and one hell. I believe that there are varying degrees in heaven, with the highest degree being where God lives, and you go to the appropriate degree based on your actions. I have issues with "If one person commits 4,999 sins, he goes to heaven. If another person commits 5,000 sins, he goes to hell" concept, as well as "I believe in Lord, so I'm saved!" What's the point of believing in Lord if you don't do his commandments? If you believe that God exists, and is omnipotent, wouldn't it make sense that he's also logical, not illogical?
[/quote]
Just wondering, from where did you come by these beliefs?

[quote name='Fiddler' timestamp='1297967012' post='4775494']
@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

I'm not twisting my way around anything. I'm trying to be as clear in my discussion as possible. The problem is that we are discussing things that aren't always possible for finite, imperfect minds to comprehend.

Yes, people are born with an inherent sin nature that, if not "taken care of" through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, means we're headed to hell. Even if I lived a "perfect" life through my actions I'm still imperfect by nature. Why should I feel guilty about something that I didn't do? This would be like a person in a society of blue-eyed people being born with brown eyes. Why should he feel guilty about it?
[/quote]

I think you meant to say "in a society of blue eyed people, why feel guilty about being born blue eyed".

That fits the analogy better...atleast to me.

Question to the Christians:

Let's say an individual is given up for adoption at an early age and throughout his life he goes from abusive foster home to abusive foster home. By the time he's 18, he has the all the makings of a hard criminal. This person does hard drugs, robs, bribes, carjacks, etc. Anything against the law, you name it, he does it. Eventually this person gets so whacked out on drugs that he goes out and kills 50 people in cold blood...for no real reason.

5 years later on death row, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to accept Jesus. Assume he is sincere in his transition. Does he get into heaven over the people who simply do not follow the Biblical God?

Assuming he is truly sincere and believes, yes.

[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1297974017' post='4775557']
[quote name='Fiddler' timestamp='1297967012' post='4775494']
@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

I'm not twisting my way around anything. I'm trying to be as clear in my discussion as possible. The problem is that we are discussing things that aren't always possible for finite, imperfect minds to comprehend.

Yes, people are born with an inherent sin nature that, if not "taken care of" through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, means we're headed to hell. Even if I lived a "perfect" life through my actions I'm still imperfect by nature. Why should I feel guilty about something that I didn't do? This would be like a person in a society of blue-eyed people being born with brown eyes. Why should he feel guilty about it?
[/quote]

I think you meant to say "in a society of blue eyed people, why feel guilty about being born blue eyed".

That fits the analogy better...atleast to me.
[/quote]
Either way, why would one feel guilty over something he didn't do and had no control over?

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1297969582' post='4775522']
I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Christianity's goal is not to make you feel guilty, just to recognize that you need to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved. That sounds kind of like it contradicts itself, but the focus is on being forgiven, not on feeling guilty, and that is a significant difference.

I never understood why you would or should ask me for forgiveness and not the human you acted against.
[/quote]

Why would I not do both?

And though I am sure you think it's cute to refer to yourself as God, and while I will admit the idea of it was initially amusing, it's amusement has run its course and is becoming increasingly more juvenile.

Just wondering, from where did you come by these beliefs?

I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

If you're asking about references in the Bible, here's one:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41


40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[quote name='Fiddler' timestamp='1297967012' post='4775494']
@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

I'm not twisting my way around anything. I'm trying to be as clear in my discussion as possible. The problem is that we are discussing things that aren't always possible for finite, imperfect minds to comprehend.

Yes, people are born with an inherent sin nature that, if not "taken care of" through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, means we're headed to hell. Even if I lived a "perfect" life through my actions I'm still imperfect by nature.[/quote]

Because a talking snake persuaded a girl to eat an apple from a forbidden tree. Got it.

Why should I feel guilty about something that I didn't do?[/quote]


You shouldn't, that's the point.

I recall exactly the moment when I became aware of the subtle and evil chains imposed on me by christianity. I was raised in a country of the european bible belt, where christianity is taught as part of the school curriculum. Its dogma was being drilled forcefully into my mind for 12 years. What can a child do when confronted with fear of eternal punishment and pain, at an age when critical thinking is not yet formed? Let me tell you what this child did: it was terrified and prayed for salvation.

Over the years, that fear faded and was covered by a veil of piousness. I would go to church, pray and generally do everything that was expected of me. Every now and then I'd ask my teachers an uncomfortable question, only to be met with various cop outs: hell is not fire and brimstone but the absense of god; yes, salvation is only possible through the church; no, you cannot understand the teachings on your own - do you think yourself better than our fathers? No, innocent mulsim children don't go to hell. Well yes, they do, because they don't believe in the christian god - but you mustn't ask such improper questions.

All this would change on my 15th summer. My best friend and I have just climbed up the nearby mountain and are sitting on a rock enjoying the view. A few hundred meters below us, the graveyard. A question comes to my mind: "are you afraid of dying?"

"A little. You?"

"Yeah."

"Why?"

Timidly, I answer, "I'm afraid of going to hell."

He laughs, "There's no hell!"

"What? Sure there is!"

"Says who?"

"Well, the church for one."

"They are lying."

I am speechless. We haven't really discussed religious matters before and this is actually the first time someone denies my faith outright. I've been a christian for 9 years - I can't even fathom how someone could not believe in god.

"So how do you know that? Because I don't think they are lying."

"Well, have you ever seen hell? Or known someone who has?"

"No, since, you need to die first."

"Convenient, isn't it?"

"How?"

"See, here's the thing: if you believe there is hell, you'll want to avoid it, no?"

"Yeah, obviously."

"And if you don't believe, you go straight to hell. Don't you see it?"

"See what?"

"That you've eaten into their lies." (I'm bristling at this point) "They are making up stories to scare you, so they can tell you what to do. Well, *I* don't like following orders."

We didn't really speak much for the rest of the day or the next one, but his words had taken root in my mind. They made sense. A lot of sense. Much more than a story about fire and brimstone, fallen angels, wars, parting waters, sheep, candles and chanting.I was starting to see through the veil of lies.

Eventually, I denounced this religion.

See, I don't know whether god exists. I don't particularly care, either: if it does, then it doesn't appear to affect our day-to-day matters much. Let us live our current life as well as we can and if another one exists... well its time will come, then. If you wish to believe that abstinence and guilt will somehow save you from a hypothetical hell, well be my guest. Just keep in mind that there's a chance you might be wrong - and then you'll have wasted a significant portion of your rather limited life.

You shouldn't, that's the point.

And I don't know of any Christian who does.

I recall exactly the moment when I became aware of the subtle and evil chains imposed on me by [s]christianity[/s].a church/denomination

Fixed that for you.

I was raised in a country of the european bible belt, where christianity is taught as part of the school curriculum. Its dogma was being drilled forcefully into my mind for 12 years. What can a child do when confronted with fear of eternal punishment and pain, at an age when critical thinking is not yet formed? Let me tell you what this child did: it was terrified and prayed for salvation.

Over the years, that fear faded and was covered by a veil of piousness. I would go to church, pray and generally do everything that was expected of me. Every now and then I'd ask my teachers an uncomfortable question, only to be met with various cop outs: hell is not fire and brimstone but the absense of god; yes, salvation is only possible through the church; no, you cannot understand the teachings on your own - do you think yourself better than our fathers? No, innocent mulsim children don't go to hell. Well yes, they do, because they don't believe in the christian god - but you mustn't ask such improper questions.

That's not Christianity.

"That you've eaten into their lies." (I'm bristling at this point) "They are making up stories to scare you, so they can tell you what to do. Well, *I* don't like following orders."

So what proof did he offer for his claims?

We didn't really speak much for the rest of the day or the next one, but his words had taken root in my mind. They made sense. A lot of sense. Much more than a story about fire and brimstone, fallen angels, wars, parting waters, sheep, candles and chanting.I was starting to see through the veil of lies.

Again, how do you know they're lies?

Eventually, I denounced this religion.

See, I don't know whether god exists. I don't particularly care, either: if it does, then it doesn't appear to affect our day-to-day matters much. Let us live our current life as well as we can and if another one exists... well its time will come, then. If you wish to believe that abstinence and guilt will somehow save you from a hypothetical hell, well be my guest. Just keep in mind that there's a chance you might be wrong - and then you'll have wasted a significant portion of your rather limited life.

How would it be a waste? What should I be doing - partying and wasting money and damaging my health? I'm not doing anything I don't choose or want to do.

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1297928655' post='4775301']
I'm just as God made me sir!

Actually, you're not as God made you. You've got an extra piece in you that God didn't put there.[/quote]What does that mean?

That's not Christianity. [/quote]You seem to consider yourself some kind of authority over what exactly Christianity is -- you do know that you're wrong though, right? Christianity envelopes the beliefs, cultures, traditions and practices of billions of people of different churches and denominations. Many of them are going to be completely different to the life you've lived, but none of them can honestly say that their version of that life is the true vision of Christianity. That's absurd.

So what proof did he offer for his claims?
Again, how do you know they're lies?[/quote]When I say, for example "the empire state building is actually an optical illusion, and in fact is just a small potato", how do you know I'm lying?
When someone makes an extraordinarily absurd claim with absolutely no proof or reason behind their assertions, then you don't need proof to the contrary. Any reasonable person can dismiss their drivel out of common sense (or if you like, out of science).