Of course it's going to seem unfair to us that many will go to Hell, but our viewpoint is biased. You have to learn not to look at things from our viewpoint and it will just frustrate and confuse you. God is God and we're not. He's perfectly within his rights to completely destroy us at any time if he wanted.

Please stop making me in your image. I'm not a sociopath.

God

[quote name='Machaira' timestamp='1297818730' post='4774745']Of course it's going to seem unfair to us that many will go to Hell, but our viewpoint is biased. You have to learn not to look at things from our viewpoint and it will just frustrate and confuse you. God is God and we're not. He's perfectly within his rights to completely destroy us at any time if he wanted.

Please stop making me in your image. I'm not a sociopath.

God
[/quote]

Hooray brothers! He hath spoken!

Okay man, whatever, erase my previous phrase and substitute it with "they did it to please God". Seems I don't know when love is "good" and when it's a sin.

"love" of the kind that cares for others is not sin. Andy's reply was a little confusing IMO.

So, what happens then? Take my example and think they did it to please God(or Allah). What happens then.

A question in reply - why does it matter? Do you not trust God to do what is right (in his view, not ours, which is all that really matters in the long run)? Any example that we can come up with is going to be problematic as we're talking about things we can't fully grasp because of our finite, flawed minds.

"love" of the kind that cares for others is not sin.

If you define "sin" as "something you shouldn't do", then love that does not respect the autonomy of the loved one is sin. But you should respect other people's autonomy for their sake, not to prevent being punished by me (which I won't do, by the way. If you want to get punished, there are humans that provide that service for a small fee).
  

Do you not trust God to do what is right (in his view, not ours, which is all that really matters in the long run)?

My view is all that matters? I wish my parents would think the same way ...  

Any example that we can come up with is going to be problematic as we're talking about things we can't fully grasp because of our finite, flawed minds.

You're selling humanity a bit short here. Of course human minds are flawed (just look up things like "confirmation bias" in your favourite encyclopedia), but it's not as if my mind is much better.

God.

I love how each christian in this thread offers a different interpretation for "sin", "salvation", "holy grace", etc.

Which is nice, actually. Religious constructs try to offer absolute certainties: "believe and you will be saved". "I am the only true god." These "truths" are comforting - but ultimately sick. A weak mind accepts someone else's view as the truth. A healthy mind thinks, understands and accepts or rejects this view - knowing that more information may offer a new viewpoint in the future. It questions always and never stands still.

mikeman is a great example of a thinking theist.

@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Christianity's goal is not to make you feel guilty, just to recognize that you need to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved. That sounds kind of like it contradicts itself, but the focus is on being forgiven, not on feeling guilty, and that is a significant difference.

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Christianity's goal is not to make you feel guilty, just to recognize that you need to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved. That sounds kind of like it contradicts itself, but the focus is on being forgiven, not on feeling guilty, and that is a significant difference.

I never understood why you would or should ask me for forgiveness and not the human you acted against.

Oh well, the eternal mystery that is the human brain ...

God

Question to the Christians:

Let's say an individual is given up for adoption at an early age and throughout his life he goes from abusive foster home to abusive foster home. By the time he's 18, he has the all the makings of a hard criminal. This person does hard drugs, robs, bribes, carjacks, etc. Anything against the law, you name it, he does it. Eventually this person gets so whacked out on drugs that he goes out and kills 50 people in cold blood...for no real reason.

5 years later on death row, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to accept Jesus. Assume he is sincere in his transition. Does he get into heaven over the people who simply do not follow the Biblical God?

Question to the Christians:

Let's say an individual is given up for adoption at an early age and throughout his life he goes from abusive foster home to abusive foster home. By the time he's 18, he has the all the makings of a hard criminal. This person does hard drugs, robs, bribes, carjacks, etc. Anything against the law, you name it, he does it. Eventually this person gets so whacked out on drugs that he goes out and kills 50 people in cold blood...for no real reason.

5 years later on death row, he suddenly has a change of heart and decides to accept Jesus. Assume he is sincere in his transition. Does he get into heaven over the people who simply do not follow the Biblical God?

Different denominations will give you different answers. What I believe is that God will judge you based on the laws that you know, and how you are raised. If a parent fail to teach his/her child morals, then that child's transgressions will be put on their parent's shoulders, because the child wouldn't have committed transgressions if he/she knew better. So you could say in that situation, the abusive foster homes will be accountable for the man's crimes. But if the man does know better, then the transgression is on his shoulders.

I also don't believe that there's only one heaven and one hell. I believe that there are varying degrees in heaven, with the highest degree being where God lives, and you go to the appropriate degree based on your actions. I have issues with "If one person commits 4,999 sins, he goes to heaven. If another person commits 5,000 sins, he goes to hell" concept, as well as "I believe in Lord, so I'm saved!" What's the point of believing in Lord if you don't do his commandments? If you believe that God exists, and is omnipotent, wouldn't it make sense that he's also logical, not illogical?

@Machaira: christianity is the very definition of a guilt-ridden faith: aren't we all born carrying the original sin, through no action of our own? Aren't we all going to hell, unless we place our faith in jesus? (Jesus saves; the rest take damage). Don't try to twist your way around this, it merely makes you appear dishonest.

I'm not twisting my way around anything. I'm trying to be as clear in my discussion as possible. The problem is that we are discussing things that aren't always possible for finite, imperfect minds to comprehend.

Yes, people are born with an inherent sin nature that, if not "taken care of" through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, means we're headed to hell. Even if I lived a "perfect" life through my actions I'm still imperfect by nature. Why should I feel guilty about something that I didn't do? This would be like a person in a society of blue-eyed people being born with brown eyes. Why should he feel guilty about it?