[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1297780513' post='4774476']
Hm, we've been known to argue about this before...I just can't accept, even though I'm a Christian, that a kid or generally a person born in a muslim or hebrew or hindu country will be "damned" because he/she was born in the "wrong" side of the planet. No matter what anyone might say, the choice of religion is, for most, a matter of background, and we all know it. Jesus did say, in fact, that he considers his students "not those that say to me "Lord,Lord" but those who do the will of my Father".

They would only be "damned" if they outright denied the existence of God. Being ignorant of the existence of God is not the same as denying the existence of God. I also put "damned" in quotes because there are a lot of people who think you won't get into heaven, but you won't necessarily spend eternity being tortured.
[/quote]

So, is it God or Jesus Christ? If they believe in the One God, but not in Jesus, what then?

I'd like to say something about "being good", this debate we've been having with Machaira. From my current perspective, I agree that "being good" doesn't mean much. What I mean by that: In a massively complex and chaotic system such as human interactions, how can one agent inside the system, one human being, know how to do "good"? Even if you have the best intentions, you cannot possibly have the knowledge needed. Every one of your actions has a chain reaction effect that you can't possible see or predict. So faith in God is basically praying to a higher mind, that created this system, to guide you through these interactions so you can actually do more good than harm, and ask for forgiveness for those times when you do more harm. That's the way I see it. But, muslims or hebrews already do that, without accepting that Jesus was God the Son. For that reason alone, about 2.5 billion of people that have faith in God are in worse place than Christians?

That's the way I see it. But, muslims or hebrews already do that, without accepting that Jesus was God the Son. For that reason alone, about 2.5 billion of people that have faith in God are in worse place than Christians?

We are in no place to play the role of the judge. It is not a christian's duty to say who is and is not going to hell. The only thing I believe is that if I follow my faith, I will get to heaven/union with God/whatever you want to call it. It is not my place to say where other people will end up as it is only speculation.

Consider the bible as a roadmap to God. It shows you one certain path. There is no saying whether or not there are other paths, but there is one certain path.

[quote name='mikeman' timestamp='1297788713' post='4774531']
That's the way I see it. But, muslims or hebrews already do that, without accepting that Jesus was God the Son. For that reason alone, about 2.5 billion of people that have faith in God are in worse place than Christians?

We are in no place to play the role of the judge. It is not a christian's duty to say who is and is not going to hell. The only thing I believe is that if I follow my faith, I will get to heaven/union with God/whatever you want to call it. It is not my place to say where other people will end up as it is only speculation.

Consider the bible as a roadmap to God. It shows you one certain path. There is no saying whether or not there are other paths, but there is one certain path.
[/quote]

Great answer! Thanks man, I'll take that with me

Consider the bible as a roadmap to God. It shows you one certain path. There is no saying whether or not there are other paths, but there is one certain path.

Trouble is, in the Bible, Jesus says that there are no other paths. Of course he may be wrong... But if he is wrong then I can't really see how the Bible is a very good roadmap!! If your map omitted a major highway you'd throw it out, you wouldn't keep using it.

Trouble is, in the Bible, Jesus says that there are no other paths. Of course he may be wrong...

or there is the very real possibility that you are mistaken in his meaning. Jesus is the judge. Being so makes him the only way to get into heaven regardless of religion, but it is not our place to say how he will judge us.

[quote name='AndyGeers' timestamp='1297792074' post='4774551']
Trouble is, in the Bible, Jesus says that there are no other paths. Of course he may be wrong...

or there is the very real possibility that you are mistaken in his meaning.
[/quote]



rofl he's just taking it in the context it was written. Your interpretation actually goes against the entire Bible.

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1297793326' post='4774559']
[quote name='AndyGeers' timestamp='1297792074' post='4774551']
Trouble is, in the Bible, Jesus says that there are no other paths. Of course he may be wrong...

or there is the very real possibility that you are mistaken in his meaning.
[/quote]
rofl he's just taking it in the context it was written. Your interpretation actually goes against the entire Bible.
[/quote]

How do you figure it goes against the entire Bible?

It is generally accepted that Mary was born of both human parents, and she herself did not have the sin nature we all have, did she?

Only by Catholocism, AFAIK. Almost all non-Catholic Christians do not believe that, nor is it something the Bible backs up:



Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

The Greek for "knew" and "know" are both the same and in this context can only use the third meaning here

I generally don't understand all those "genetic" rules and regulations we impose as to how it came that Jesus was pure of sin from the beginning. If Mary wasn't pure, and she was his only parent, then by the same token how he was pure?

The common explanation is that the inherited sin nature is passed through the father. Since Jesus' father was God, there was no sin nature, making him the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

It can't be extended to morals because it's not applicable. Being "good" is not enough.

Hm, we've been known to argue about this before...I just can't accept, even though I'm a Christian, that a kid or generally a person born in a muslim or hebrew or hindu country will be "damned" because he/she was born in the "wrong" side of the planet. No matter what anyone might say, the choice of religion is, for most, a matter of background, and we all know it. Jesus did say, in fact, that he considers his students "not those that say to me "Lord,Lord" but those who do the will of my Father".
[/quote]
They're not damned because their born in the wrong side of the planet. I know the choice of religion or choice of no religion for that matter is affected by many things which the person has no control over. That's irrelevant.

Of course it's going to seem unfair to us that many will go to Hell, but our viewpoint is biased. You have to learn not to look at things from our viewpoint and it will just frustrate and confuse you. God is God and we're not. He's perfectly within his rights to completely destroy us at any time if he wanted. That he doesn't is a sign of his mercy.

They're not damned because their born in the wrong side of the planet. I know the choice of religion or choice of no religion for that matter is affected by many things which the person has no control over. That's irrelevant.

Of course it's going to seem unfair to us that many will go to Hell, but our viewpoint is biased. You have to learn not to look at things from our viewpoint and it will just frustrate and confuse you. God is God and we're not. He's perfectly within his rights to completely destroy us at any time if he wanted. That he doesn't is a sign of his mercy.

I'm sorry, but all that makes little sense. What does it all mean? That some people are destined from the beginning to suffer, "just because"? If what you say is true, that being a Christian is the only way to be saved, then I have been born with a massive advantage over another person that has been born in,say, a muslim or hindu country, without having done absolutely *anything* to deserve it. What is salvation then, a lottery?

Of course it's going to seem unfair to us that many will go to Hell, but our viewpoint is biased. You have to learn not to look at things from our viewpoint and it will just frustrate and confuse you. God is God and we're not. He's perfectly within his rights to completely destroy us at any time if he wanted. That he doesn't is a sign of his mercy.[/quote]

Leaving in constant fear and subservience must be fun. What I do or say doesn't matter, 'god' could destroy me at any time. I'm happy he hasn't done that already.

Black people used to feel that way once. Women, too. Religion is next.

I'm sorry, but all that makes little sense. What does it all mean? That some people are destined from the beginning to suffer, "just because"? If what you say is true, that being a Christian is the only way to be saved, then I have been born with a massive advantage over another person that has been born in,say, a muslim or hindu country, without having done absolutely *anything* to deserve it. What is salvation then, a lottery?[/quote]

Fortunately, not all religious people feel that way. However, ask a fundamentalist and, yeah, that's what he'll tell you - regardless of religion.

There appears be some deep-rooted need for belonging to a peer group that is 'better' than everyone else. "We are humble and will be saved (hence we are better than you). God wills it so". It's juvenile and idiotic but this behavior is visible everywhere: sports, religion, politics, even phone brands and operating systems.