Quote: Original post by MaulingMonkey
What matters, ultimately, is preventing such tragedies from reoccurring. This means understanding both sides of the conflict -- their circumstances, their mistakes. Not LessBread's sensationalism.

Pay attention to this and in twenty years you'll be sensationalist about it too.

The claim that such tragedies can be prevented from reoccurring if we only stop to understand both sides of the conflict, their circumstances, their mistakes is nonsense. Such understanding of the 2008 invasion of Gaza didn't prevent this tragedy. Such understanding of the massive bombing of Lebanon in 2006 didn't prevent this tragedy. Why should understanding of this incident prevent the next tragedy?

Rebranding Israel as a state headed for fascism (Haaretz 18.05.10)

Quote:
SHEIKH JARRAH, East Jerusalem - No one knows fascism better than Israelis. They are schooled, drilled in the history, the mechanics, the horrendous potential of fascist regimes. Israelis know fascism when they see it. In others.

They might well have expected that when fascism began taking root here, it would arise at a time of a national leadership of galvanizing charisma and sweeping, powerfully orchestrated modes of action.

But that would have been much too obvious to deny. And it would take denial, inertia, selective memory, a sense that things – bad as they are - can go on like this indefinitely, for fascism to be able gain its foothold in a country founded in its very blood trail.

In fact, it has taken the most dysfunctional, the most rudderless government Israel has ever known, to make moderates uncomfortably aware of the countless but largely cosmetized ways in which the right in Israel and its supporters abroad have come to plant and nurture the seeds of fascism.
...
We have grown desensitized to the consequences of actively denying basic staples and construction supplies to 1.5 million people in Gaza, many of them still waiting to rebuild homes we destroyed.

We have grown inured to the appropriation of Palestinian-owned West Bank land, to abusive treatment of law-abiding Palestinians at checkpoints, to the ill-treatment and summary expulsion of foreign workers, to racist, anti-democratic and, yes, fascistic rulings by extreme rightist rabbis, especially some of those holding official positions in the West Bank.
...

Quote: Original post by Hnefi
Yes you did, when you labelled part of the cargo as "contraband" - because the part of the cargo labelled "contraband" by Israel is indeed cement.

I used contraband as it is defined in the Helsinki Princibles of the law in neutrality.

Quote: No, you haven't. You've shown videos with smoke and violence. Nowhere have you shown that any weapons used, besides blunt objects, were not brought and used by the Israeli commandos.

then you haven't watched all the videos.

Quote: But all this is getting tiresome. All you do is drop arguments about the real issue which you've been unable to refute: that Israel had no authority whatsoever to board these ships on international water in the first place.

they certainly did! see my posts that quote the Helsinki principles and the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea.

They had every right to at least search the ships, which had every intention of going through the blockade.

"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

grants them the right to search in international waters as the vessel had made their intentions clear.

The ships were Turkish, Israel is not (for now at least) at war with Turkey and are thus not in an international armed conflict with them.

If the ships had entered their waters, having been told to stand clear, then they would have had the legal right.

To repeat; Israel is NOT at war.
They even have an offical ceasefire in place with Hamas.
Therefore any clause asserting the rights in an 'international armed conflict' has no standing.

Quote:
I have also shown that they were transporting a lot more than cement.

You've shown nothing. A handful of small scale arms? Knives and sticks, I'm sure they don't have them in the Gaza strip. There are bound to be quite a few knives on a boat that big anyway. They included screwdrivers. Smoke torches, not really an offensive weapon. A hammer and some wrenches, again fairly standard for a large ship I imagine? Gasmasks?

The slingshots and baseball bats are the closest thing to purely offensive weapons. Its hard to infer anything about that explosive-lookalike at the end of the video, other than the implied threat. This assumes we can trust that these "weapons" were all seized from the ship.

Are you suggesting their plan was to run the gauntlet and deliver these pitiful supplies apparently critical to the resistance movement? Don't make me laugh. I could probably round up a better selection of weapons with a random selection of houses in my vicinity.

The other videos are equally unconvincing. Yes, the Israeli soldiers were attacked. But they had no right to board the ship, so it doesn't matter. In any case, the Israeli soldiers clearly escalated the level of violence by using guns.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
And Lessbread, be angry if you want. But "terrorism" is extremely weak. Throwing the word terrorism in a situation like this is a great way to get otherwise valid opinions ignored or ridiculed.

Somali pirates have been called terrorists for commandeering ships in international waters. What the Israeli commandos did isn't very different from what they do, worse actually when you consider that the commandos killed 9 people.

'The ship turned into a lake of blood,' says activist on Gaza flotilla (Haaretz 31.05.10)

Quote:
Pro-Palestinian activists returning to Europe said Israeli commandos used stun guns on passengers and beat them during the deadly raid on an aid flotilla that was trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. One woman said her aid ship turned into a l"ake of blood."
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The activists - which included Turks, Israelis, Palestinians, European politicians, a Jewish Holocaust survivor and Swedish author - were processed in and around Israel's port of Ashdod, where the six ships of the blockade-running convoy had been escorted.
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46 civilians, mostly Turkish citizens, are still hospitalized in various medical centers throughout Israel, nine of them in serious condition. Six IDF soldiers, including two officers, are also hospitalized in light to serious condition.
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Nine activists aboard the ship were killed and several more wounded in the clashes that erupted with Israel Navy troops at 4 A.M. on Monday. Eight of the Israeli soldiers were wounded, two of them seriously.
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Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin, who had hidden with her baby in her cabin's bathroom aboard the Mavi Marmara, told reporters she believed there were 11 dead.

”The ship turned into a lake of blood," Cetin told reporters in Istanbul, having returned after Israeli officials warned that jail would be too harsh for her child.

"We were aware of the possible danger in joining the trip," she said. "But there are thousands of babies in Gaza. If we had reached Gaza we would have played with them and taken them food."

She said Israeli vessels harassed the flotilla for two hours starting around 10 p.m. Sunday, and returned at around 4 a.m. Monday, fired warning shots and told the ships to turn back.

When the Mavi Marmara continued on its course the harassment turned into an attack.

"They used smoke bombs followed by gas canisters. They started to descend onto the ship with helicopters," she said, calling the clashes that then erupted "extremely bad and brutal."

"I was one of the first victims to be released because I had a child," she told reporters, "but they confiscated everything, our telephones, laptops are all gone."
...
The ships had been trying to break the three-year blockade of Gaza to deliver humanitarian aid, the activists said.

"Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat," said Greek activist Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni. He was among six Greeks returned home Tuesday.

"They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used," he said.

He said the boat's captain was beaten for refusing to leave the wheel, and had sustained non-life-threatening injuries, while a cameraman filming the raid was hit with a rifle butt in the eye, he said.

"Of course we weren't prepared for a situation of war.," he added.
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"During their interrogation, many of them were badly beaten in front of us," said Aris Papadokostopoulos, who was aboard the Free Mediterranean traveling behind the Turkish ship and carrying mainly Greek and Swedish activists.

Papadokostopoulos said the flotilla was about 80 miles (130 kilometers) off Gaza when the raid occurred around 4 a.m. Monday.

"The Turkish ship was in front of us ... on which there was a terrible raid from the air and from the sea and from everywhere, with shooting," he said.

Aboard the other boats, he said, commandos beat activists, but nobody was gravely injured. He said no one put up resistance on the Free Mediterranean, which was carrying a cargo of wheelchairs, building material and medical and pharmaceutical aid.

Some people were hit by clubs and electric shocks, he said.

Crew member Mihalis Grigoropoulos said he was on the bridge of the Free Mediterranean and heard shooting coming from the Turkish ship.

"Several people who tried to stop the Israeli forces from getting to the bridge were hit by electric shocks and plastic bullets," he said. We didn't resist at all. Even if we had wanted to, what could we do?"

Civil engineer Thanassis Petrogiannis said he had joined the flotilla to provide help in rebuilding destroyed Palestinian homes.

He said that, while in Israeli custody, authorities had demanded he sign a paper written in Hebrew. He refused, and was eventually given another document that he signed.

"Everyone who didn't accept to sign is in jail," he said.

Grigoropoulos, the crew member, and Gielalis said they were not asked to sign anything, though their cell phones, cameras and clothes were confiscated before they were expelled.
...

So let's see, 9 dead activists, 9 activists hospitalized in serious condition, 6 soldiers hospitalized in light to serious condition. But it was a lynch mob, a lynch mob I tells you!!!


Speaking of Ireland: Ireland to Israel: Let new aid ship break Gaza blockade

Quote:
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Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen urged Israel to let the vessel to finish its mission. The ship was carrying 15 activists including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.

"The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship ... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza," Cowen told parliament in Dublin.

An Israel Defense Forces officer pledged that the newest ship would also be halted, setting the stage for a fresh confrontation after Monday's deadly clash.
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Passengers on the MV Rachel Corrie include Northern Irish Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan-Maguire and Denis Halliday, an Irish former senior UN diplomat, and several other Irish citizens.

Irish Foreign Minister Micheal Martin told parliament he had spoken with Halliday on Tuesday afternoon.

"We will be watching this situation very closely -- as indeed will the world -- and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed," Martin said.
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Israel gave the following breakdown of countries and numbers of those activists ordered expelled, excluding the nine killed and the seriously wounded in Monday's raid:

Australia 3; Azerbaijan 2; Italy 6; Indonesia 12; Ireland 9; Algeria 28; United States 11; Bulgaria 2; Bosnia 1; Bahrain 4; Belgium 5; Germany 11; South Africa 1; Holland 2; United Kingdom 31; Greece 38; Jordan 30; Kuwait 15; Lebanon 3; Mauritania 3; Malaysia 11; Egypt 3; Macedonia 3; Morocco 7; Norway 3; New Zealand 1; Syria 3; Serbia 1; Oman 1; Pakistan 3; Czech Republic 4; France 9; Kosovo 1; Canada 1; Sweden 11; Turkey 380; Yemen 4.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Stun grenades and firebombs? I think you've got who brought what mixed up.

They are in the videos. You can see both.

I still think you've got who brought what mixed up.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
Are you suggesting their plan was to run the gauntlet and deliver these pitiful supplies apparently critical to the resistance movement? Don't make me laugh. I could probably round up a better selection of weapons with a random selection of houses in my vicinity.

I think that the point is that they were supposed to be a peaceful ship. Trying to trespass a maritime blockade transporting a mountain of slingshots is at the very least, stupid.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
The other videos are equally unconvincing. Yes, the Israeli soldiers were attacked. But they had no right to board the ship, so it doesn't matter. In any case, the Israeli soldiers clearly escalated the level of violence by using guns.

That's what usually happen when a bunch of civilians fuck with the military in a war-zone. Yes, you mind, the entire middle-east is a war-zone.

Quote: Original post by owl
Yes, you mind, the entire middle-east is a war-zone.

No it isn't.

There might well be tensions but afaik no country in the middle-east is at war with another right now.

There are indeed countries where it would be dangerous to go, however this event was carried out by a apprently non-rogue nation in international waters.

In short; bullshit.

Quote:
Somali pirates have been called terrorists for commandeering ships in international waters.

I think you can guess my feelings on such a label. "Terrorism" has a specific aim, and Somali pirates have the far more obvious material gain as their goal, not some political one.

That said, I can almost agree with you, having thought about it for some time. Between Mossad's alleged assasination in Dubai, and this event, it would seem that Israel want to send a message: we don't care if you're on our turf, if you disagree with us we aren't afraid to kill you. This is the only reason I can see for them taking the politically risky route of attacking the vessel while it is international waters.

I don't think I would say it was an act of terrorism, but I think I can understand your use of the terminology.

It would appear that waytoolazytocare might be correct, the BBC have a sidebar on this page which says that the operation might be technically legal, pending an investigation.

Quote: Original post by phantom

Quote: Original post by owl
Yes, you mind, the entire middle-east is a war-zone.

No it isn't.

There might well be tensions but afaik no country in the middle-east is at war with another right now.

You kiddin right? You mean that as long there isn't an official declaration of war, the hostilities doesn't exist? Don't be a child.