Quote: Original post by ValdermanSo basically, the facts are defined by what the Israeli military decides to release, disregarding the people on board?

So now we're supposed to charge countries based on what we think happened rather than what we know happened?

Quote: Original post by Valderman

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

practically the whole thing was caught on tape. If Israel decides to release all their footage then we'll know for sure, but from what's been released so far from all sides, there is a lot of evidence against the ship and its passengers.

So basically, the facts are defined by what the Israeli military decides to release, disregarding the people on board?

I dunno. Do you have a better source to share with us besides some random biased quote from the passengers? A picture speak more than a thousand words. And in one of the articles linked in this discussion (to defend the ships) you can clearly see the passengers raising sticks to the air against soldiers.

If you were in a boat in the middle of the pacific and a bunch of soldiers came in to search your boat: Would you attack them with a baseball bat?
Remember that those guys were "peaceful" Hamas supporters.

Taking aid supplies to the Gaza Strip does not make people 'pro-hamas', it makes them 'pro-Palestinian' if anything which is NOT the same thing.

To restate my earlier fact; the UN estimates that Israel are letting less than 1/4 of the aid required in Gaza.

This is leading to innocent people suffering (yeah, as much as this might offend you not everyone in there is a terrorist hell bent on the destruction of Israel), which in turn leaves them with no way out other than to strike back in some manner.

All things like this are going to do is cause more frustration in people and cause more people to think 'what have I got to lose?' and attack the innocents in Israel, which in turn continues the cycle.

Having considered this for some time I've reached the conclusion that Israel is probably the most powerful rogue state on the planet. No one will touch them and they can do what they like with impunity. Even the mighty USA seems to cower before them. While they are allowed to continue to act like this nothing will change and one day the state of Palestine will simply cease to exist.



The worst thing about this? 17 years ago they were starting to make progress towards some sort of accord.. and then posturing by both sides messed it up once more.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by ValdermanSo basically, the facts are defined by what the Israeli military decides to release, disregarding the people on board?

So now we're supposed to charge countries based on what we think happened rather than what we know happened?

Right back at you. IDF's account is no less biased, no more trustworthy. Knowing "what" happend is useless if you don't know the how, the why or the when, as I'm sure you will agree.

Quote: Original post by owl

Quote: Original post by Valderman

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

practically the whole thing was caught on tape. If Israel decides to release all their footage then we'll know for sure, but from what's been released so far from all sides, there is a lot of evidence against the ship and its passengers.

So basically, the facts are defined by what the Israeli military decides to release, disregarding the people on board?

I dunno. Do you have a better source to share with us besides some random biased quote from the passengers? A picture speak more than a thousand words. And in one of the articles linked in this discussion (to defend the ships) you can clearly see the passengers raising sticks to the air against soldiers.

If you were in a boat in the middle of the pacific and a bunch of soldiers came in to search your boat: Would you attack them with a baseball bat?
Remember that those guys were "peaceful" Hamas supporters.

If the world's foremost commando soldiers were coming at me, declared intent or no, when their commanders have previously committed to stopping my ship using any means necessary, I wouldn't invite them to tea, if that's what you mean. I don't think either party can be fully trusted. Who cares if the IDF can produce movies? This is a technical forum, yet nobody seems to even consider the possibility of doctored footage. If video is required for you to trust the IDF's word, then you simply can't trust it, because that video could be doctored in any way imaginable.

If the videos show that the soldiers were acting purely in self defense (disregarding the fact that this "self defense" situation occured while pirating on the high seas to protect an illegal blockade) then why didn't the IDF immediately release the full thing to absolve themselves of all suspicions?

Trusting either side, video footage or no, is naive in the extreme.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

practically the whole thing was caught on tape. If Israel decides to release all their footage then we'll know for sure, but from what's been released so far from all sides, there is a lot of evidence against the ship and its passengers.

The names of the dead haven't yet been released and you're claiming "too much evidence"? That's nuts. What has happened since the incident is that Israel has detained the vast majority of witnesses, confiscated their cameras and other recording devices and in the absence of those voices gone on a media propaganda blitz.

For what it's worth, I rated you up for engaging in the argument.



On the subject of contraband...

Why won't Israel allow Gazans to import coriander? (07.05.10)

Quote:
The Defense Ministry is refusing - on security grounds, it says - to reveal why Israel prohibits the import into the Gaza Strip of items such as cilantro, sage, jam, chocolate, french fries, dried fruit, fabrics, notebooks empty flowerpots and toys, while allowing cinnamon, plastic buckets and combs.

But in its response to a freedom-of-information suit last week, the state did admit, for the first time, that there is specific list of permissible goods.

The suit, filed in the Tel Aviv administrative court by Gisha: Legal Center for Freedom of Movement, sought to clarify the criteria and procedures the authorities use to determine what goods to allow into Gaza. It was filed after Gazans began claiming that commercial interests inside Israel, and their lobbying power, were determining the permitted items.

In its response, the state "apologized to the court and the plaintiff for inaccuracies presented during oral arguments [in January], due to certain misunderstandings." The inaccuracy in question was its denial of the existence of written directives.

The response included two documents that the state termed drafts that are already being used in practice - one titled "Procedure for Permitting the Entry of Goods into Gaza" and one titled "Procedure for Tracking and Estimating Inventories in Gaza." The latter is supposed to warn of existing or likely shortages.

The state also submitted a third document, a "List of Critical Humanitarian Goods for the Population," whose existence it had previously denied. This list is periodically updated, it said.

A fourth document, called "Foodstuffs Consumption in Gaza - Red Lines," is a draft for internal use only, the state said, "and has never served as a basis for decision-making." Haaretz reporters Uri Blau and Yotam Feldman revealed the existence of this document in a June 2009 investigative report. It apparently determines the minimum nutritional needs of Gaza's population, according to caloric intake and grams of food, parsed by age and gender.
...

Here's a partial list of items banned for import to Gaza. The list was taken from the pdf file linked to at the bottom of this page.

Quote:
sage, cardamom, cumin, coriander, ginger, jam, halva, vinegar, nutmeg, chocolate, fruit preserves, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, potato chips, gas for soft drinks, dried fruit, fresh meat, plaster, tar, wood for construction, cement, iron, glucose, industrial salt, plastic/glass/metal containers, industrial margarine, tarpaulin sheets for huts, fabric (for clothing), flavor and smell enhancers, fishing rods, various fishing nets, buoys, ropes for fishing, nylon nets for greenhouses, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, spare parts for tractors, dairies for cowsheds, irrigation pipe systems, ropes to tie greenhouses, planters for saplings, heaters for chicken farms, musical instruments, size A4 paper, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, sewing machines and spare parts, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, chicks

According to the white paper also linked to at that page, "No control list includes cement, glass, wood or paper, let alone foodstuffs, as these are not goods that are compatible for military use." -- In other words, Israeli law doesn't consider cement to be contraband.

Quote: Original post by owl
oh, btw. My middle finger to those who rated me down for having an oppinion.
drop dead pussies.

Are you regretting that you asked me to start this thread? [grin]

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The names of the dead haven't yet been released and you're claiming "too much evidence"? That's nuts. What has happened since the incident is that Israel has detained the vast majority of witnesses, confiscated their cameras and other recording devices and in the absence of those voices gone on a media propaganda blitz.

Well perhaps it is a bit too soon to say there is too much evidence so far, but likewise it is too soon to say Israel is definitely in the wrong.

In the end it's more likely that both sides are wrong like the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict seems to be to me.

Quote: For what it's worth, I rated you up for engaging in the argument.

kudos.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The names of the dead haven't yet been released and you're claiming "too much evidence"? That's nuts. What has happened since the incident is that Israel has detained the vast majority of witnesses, confiscated their cameras and other recording devices and in the absence of those voices gone on a media propaganda blitz.

Well perhaps it is a bit too soon to say there is too much evidence so far, but likewise it is too soon to say Israel is definitely in the wrong.

Given that Israel admits the ships were in international waters, it's not too soon to say that Israel is definitely in the wrong. Don't let the muddy details of what happened on the ships intrude on the importance of that initial fact.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
In the end it's more likely that both sides are wrong like the whole Palestinian/Israeli conflict seems to be to me.

That sounds like the "false equivalence" fallacy to me.

Quote: Original post by lithos
from my understanding most(if not all) of the night video capture and several videos from news cameras have been released/leaked/whatever. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say there are quite a few logs of all communications as well.

People were quite literally waiting with "blunt implements" where the pirates were going to land. and starting defending their ship from the attackers and separating the pirates as they came down from the helicopter.

There fixed it for you.

An attack on a civilian ship on international water is illegal, the people on the boat had every right to fight off the attackers. allthough trying to fight off pirates armed with firearms using only blunt objects, while brave is still fairly stupid. (The people on the boats that didn't defend themselves got kidnapped and taken to Israel against their will)

Israel fucked up big time, there are no excuses for their behaviour this time, none at all.

Get a load of this: 'Next time we'll use more force'

Quote:
Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war."
...

Yes, the quote was anonymous, but the Jerusalem Post never-the-less found it worthy of online publication. That bellicosity says all that needs to be said.

Will the Rachel Corrie wait for Turkish Navy escort? Will it sail to Egypt instead so that the aid can be delivered through Rafah?