Quote: Original post by rip-off

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Somali pirates have been called terrorists for commandeering ships in international waters.

I think you can guess my feelings on such a label. "Terrorism" has a specific aim, and Somali pirates have the far more obvious material gain as their goal, not some political one.

That would absolve Somali pirates but not necessarily the IDF, which operated in pursuit of a political goal.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
That said, I can almost agree with you, having thought about it for some time. Between Mossad's alleged assasination in Dubai, and this event, it would seem that Israel want to send a message: we don't care if you're on our turf, if you disagree with us we aren't afraid to kill you. This is the only reason I can see for them taking the politically risky route of attacking the vessel while it is international waters.

I had forgotten about the Dubai affair. If the message was "we aren't afraid to kill you" then the assault was a terrorist operation intent on terrorizing these peace activists on those ships as well as any peace activists who might try something similar in the future.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
I don't think I would say it was an act of terrorism, but I think I can understand your use of the terminology.

Terrorism is a tactic usually used by weak groups against strong groups. If this incident doesn't appear like terrorism I think it's mostly because it involved a strong group attacking a weak group.

Quote: Original post by rip-off
It would appear that waytoolazytocare might be correct, the BBC have a sidebar on this page which says that the operation might be technically legal, pending an investigation.

I think the article is more informative than the side bar. I was going to link to it myself: Witnesses cast doubt on Israel's convoy raid account (See Gaza flotilla - Eye witness accounts of Israeli raid for verbatim accounts).

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"This was not an act of self-defence," said Mr Paech, a politician, as he arrived back in Berlin wrapped in a blue blanket.

"Personally I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives.

"This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission... This was a clear act of piracy," he added.

Mr Paech had been a passenger on the Turkish passenger ship Mavi Marmara where most, if not all, of the deaths occurred.
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Meanwhile, in Nazareth, Israeli Arab MP Haneen Zuabi - who was on the flotilla - told a press conference that Israeli forces began firing while still in the helicopters hovering over the ships.

"We are calling for an international committee to investigate this tragedy," she said.
...

From the side bar:

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# The UN Charter on the Law of the Sea says only if a vessel is suspected to be transporting weapons, or weapons of mass destruction, can it be boarded in international waters. Otherwise the permission of the ship's flag carrying nation must be sought.
# The charter allows for naval blockades, but the effect of the blockade on civilians must be proportionate to the effect on the military element for the blockade to be legally enforceable.
# A ship trying to breach a blockade can be boarded and force may be used to stop it as long as it is "necessary and proportionate".

Weapons? No.
Proportionate? No.
Proportionate? No.

Quote:
I think the article is more informative than the side bar...

The witnesses were part of the protest group, which casts doubt on what they say. In one of waytoolazytocare's videos, there appeared to be a protestor stabbing a IDF member, but the video is difficult to make out.

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Terrorism is a tactic usually used by weak groups against strong groups. If this incident doesn't appear like terrorism I think it's mostly because it involved a strong group attacking a weak group.

It isn't that.

I wouldn't call it terrorism because it wasn't a random act of carnage against civilians. It was targetted at a very specific group who were well warned. I'm not condoning such behaviour, but the protestors knew what they were getting themselves into and could have avoided it. This is a very different situation from terrorism, which is characterised by "it could be anyone, anywhere, attacked next".

But mostly I wouldn't call it terrorism is because terrorism has connotations of clueless Americans who label anything vaguely violent as Terrists [grin]

But lets not argue over such personal definitions. I've already retracted most of my original sentiment.

I'm not alone in my use of the word.

Turkey recalls envoy over Gaza flotilla deaths, accuses Israel of 'state terrorism'

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Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan said the incident represented a complete violation of international law.

"This action, totally contrary to the principles of international law, is inhumane state terrorism. Nobody should think we will keep quiet in the face of this," Erdogan told reporters from Chile, where he was cutting short an official visit to Latin America to deal with the crisis.
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Here are a few interesting snippets from the war of words.

Hamas: Flotilla shows whole world opposes Gaza siege (Haaretz 28.05.10)[Note this date].

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Flotilla organizers arranged the timing so that a potential encounter with the Israeli Navy would occur during the daytime hours, and not during the darkness of night.

Israel has said it will overtake the ships as soon as they enter a 20-mile Israeli-controlled zone off Gaza. They will then be towed to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where the foreign nationals will be handed over to Immigration Police for deportation abroad, said Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor.

The Israel Navy started preparing for the arrival of the Gaza aid flotilla by sending ships to counter the convoy in the Israeli-controlled waters. Despite the convoy's delay, the Israel Defense Forces continued to prepare for its arrival as planned.

Earlier on Friday, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman called the Freedom Flotilla violent propaganda against Israel's sovereignty, and added that Israel would not allow such a threat to continue.

"The aid convoy is violent propaganda against Israel, and Israel will not allow its sovereignty to be threatened in any way, in any place - land, air or sea," Lieberman said during a foreign ministry briefing on the aid convoy's progress towards the shores of Gaza.

"There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip," Liebeman added. "Despite Hamas' war crimes against Israeli citizens and the thousands of rockets fired at Israeli towns, Israel continues to respond in the most humane way possible."
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The IDF on Thursday completed its preparations for countering the international aid flotilla. Israel announced that it will prevent the ships from reaching their destination, and warned that it will not hesitate to make use of limited force if it becomes necessary.

Israel considers the effort by international left-wing elements and Islamic organizations as intentional provocation under the guise of humanitarian aid.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Ministry Director General Yossi Gal held a round of explanatory calls with foreign ministers from countries whose citizens are participating in the flotilla, and also with foreign diplomats on Thursday. The Israeli message has been that the activists are welcome to bring the humanitarian aid to the port of Ashdod, where it will be examined and if found suitable will be permitted to enter the Gaza Strip through the land crossings. If the activists try to break the siege, they will be arrested.

Barak and Gal insisted that there is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip.
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"The aid convoy is violent propaganda against Israel - must anymore be said to explain what happened? Lieberman had them keyed up to kill.

Netanyahu: World criticism won't stop Israel's blockade of Gaza

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Netanyahu added that Israel regretted that nine lives were lost in the operation on Monday, but defended the Israel Defense Forces soldiers as having been justified in the actions of their mission.

"This was not a peace flotilla, but a violent force," he said.
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Much of the session was devoted not to the military operation but rather to media and public relations issues surrounding the issue. "The ministers who attended the meeting didn't get the impression from the defense establishment that a violent confrontation of this scope was likely," one senior Jerusalem official said. "The sense during the discussion was that the navy would come and the organizers would take fright, do an about-face and flee," he said.

According to senior officials who attended the session, a few ministers expressed differing views but in the end a consensus was reached and there was not even a vote. One of the most vocal participants in Wednesday's session was Cabinet Secretary Zvi Hauser.

He was against the raid and said the ships should be allowed to dock in Gaza in order to avoid a diplomatic and public relations crisis as well as the embarrassment to Israel that a violent confrontation with demonstrators on the ships could cause. After senior defense officials expressed their opposition to Hauser's views, his position was rejected.
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"This was not a peace flotilla, but a violent force," - must anymore be said to explain what happened? Netanyahu has absolved himself for the killing.

And on the subject of referring to Israel as a rogue nation, consider it's refusal to sign the NNPT.

Israel rejects call to join anti-nuclear treaty

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All 189 parties to the Non-Proliferation Treaty, including the United States, called on Friday in a declaration that singled out Israel for a conference in 2012 to discuss banning weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East.

"As a non-signatory state of the NPT, Israel is not obligated by the decisions of this conference, which has no authority over Israel," the Israeli government said in an emailed statement.

"Given the distorted nature of this resolution, Israel will not be able to take part in its implementation," it said.

The 28-page declaration said U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and key states would arrange a conference that would include all nations in the region, by implication including bitter enemies Israel and Iran.

Israel is presumed to have a sizable nuclear arsenal but neither confirms nor denies it. It is the only Middle East state that has not signed the NPT and, like fellow non-members India and Pakistan, did not take part in the review conference.
...

oh, btw. My middle finger to those who rated me down for having an oppinion.
drop dead pussies.

Off the topic of how this will be sensationalized by nations and the media and back on the legality and legal results.

I think the most likely legal results to come out of this will be a conclusion that deems it a tragic accident finding Israel was not in the wrong. There's too much evidence supporting them and not enough against them (at least until the full videos of the attacks are released by Israel).

Could Israel have handled it better? of course. Could the passengers and crew have handled it better? definitely yes. This was the result of two poor decisions resulting in a horrible outcome.

Quote: Original post by owl
oh, btw. My middle finger to those who rated me down for having an oppinion.
drop dead pussies.

It's ok... I get rated down for having an opinion all the time :D

In this thread I got rated down for presenting almost entirely facts though, which is somewhat upsetting :(

Quote: Original post by LessBread
No drama Obama is afraid to act, at least not without the facts

The humanity! You are right though; quite unlike him.

*cough* Henry Louis Gates

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
There's too much evidence supporting them and not enough against them (at least until the full videos of the attacks are released by Israel).

Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
Could Israel have handled it better? of course. Could the passengers and crew have handled it better? definitely yes. This was the result of two poor decisions resulting in a horrible outcome.

That's the same bullshit line that was used to justify the massacre of Gaza in 2008 and the massive bombing of Lebanon in 2006.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

practically the whole thing was caught on tape. If Israel decides to release all their footage then we'll know for sure, but from what's been released so far from all sides, there is a lot of evidence against the ship and its passengers.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Hahahahahahahahaha -- too much evidence? Nuts!

practically the whole thing was caught on tape. If Israel decides to release all their footage then we'll know for sure, but from what's been released so far from all sides, there is a lot of evidence against the ship and its passengers.

So basically, the facts are defined by what the Israeli military decides to release, disregarding the people on board?