Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by Hnefi
Ah yes - except that Israel declares itself to be at peace, not war, which disqualifies it as a belligerent state, thus making the above rule inapplicable. Try again.

no it doesn't. Israel is at war with Hamas.

Hamas is not the government of a nation. You can't be legally at war with a terrorist organization - hence all that mumble about "enemy combatants", remember? No, Israel is formally at peace, even if it doesn't do much to act that way. Or perhaps you can name the nation with which Israel is at war?

Quote: not hand guns. A single hand gun. I don't know how much ammo your hand gun carries, but I doubt it's 50 bullets. And I seriously doubt that matters when you are being beaten and stabbed.

Oh come on, that's such BS. 10 soldiers shared a single handgun? You really believe that?

Why does it matter anyway? In the end, the Israelis killed about a dozen civilians who did nothing other than defend their ship with nonlethal force, which Israeli soldiers boarded on international waters.

Quote: oh yea... that's a great idea. Then instead of trained soldiers they'll have an untrained more valuable hostage.

According to you, the soldiers were unarmed and outmatched anyway, so what difference would it have made in that regard? Furthermore, you're not really so naive as to believe a negotiator would have been taken hostage, are you? This boat was not actually filled with terrorists; just civilians, among them former members of various parliaments, nobel laureates and physicians. Even if - and that's a flippin' enormous if - some of the crew members would have wanted to hold such a negotiator hostage, it would not have gone over well with the majority of the crew on these boats.

And finally, if such a thing, despite its ridiculousness, would have happened, it would have been a major PR victory for Israel.

Quote: 1. Building materials are considered contraband by Israel after Hamas repeatedly used them to build fortified bunkers rather than build houses for their people.

Are you for real? You support Israels declaration of cement as contraband?

Quote: 2. hundreds of slingshots, hundreds of knives, and firebombs.

According to what source? And seriously, what kind of contraband is that? SLINGSHOTS? Oh yeah, Hamas are going to raze the wall with slingshots, knives and bottles of lighting fluid.

Listen to your own arguments, man. Just read them out loud to yourself, and think them over.

Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
The first part I have a problem with is that this isn't an international armed conflict. What were the reasonable grounds to search? How does cement become contraband?

The reasonable grounds for search was that the boats may have contained contraband materials. Don't forget a long history of contraband materials being smuggled as aid into an area involved in armed conflict with the state. A long history of weapons being smuggled while non-neutral third parties claim it is just international aid for the long-suffering poor helpless folks that build and launch missile daily, that pay mothers to send their sons and daughters off to blow themselves up for peace.

Anyone who claims Israel has no reason to board and inspect any cargo carrier destined for the Gaza strip is being disingenuous at best.

I would think, and since there is no useful information at this point, that the only reason one would attack an armed soldier from a country known for not taking shit from anybody, is because you're guilty and have nothing to lose but propaganda leverage to gain. Sure, you wouldn't attack a cop who pulled you over for speeding if you haven't been speeding. You might attack him if you had a body in the back seat and you were taking it out to a back road to bury it in a shallow grave.

Quote: Original post by MaulingMonkey
Mind you, Iran repeatedly boards navy boats without having it's sailors attacked. In arguably national waters, granted, but all the same in waters those being boarded at the time believed themselves to have the right to operate in.

The key differences are those being boarded were miltary, thus more likely to be trained and show restraint, and the area they were in looks to be one where the borders of the various countries' waters are right against each other.

In contrast, based on a map on the BBC website, the approximate location of the interception took place around 100Km outside Israel's waters.

Now, while I'm not saying that Iran were in the right either the there is a bit of a difference between a 'mistake' and traveling 100km with warships and support craft outside your border to capture some ships.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
The difference being that nobody has vowed in the case of North Korea or Iran that they would not rest until the sand of the desert ran red with the blood of children and that every last man, woman, and child of some ethnic groups in those countries would be driven into the sea and drowned.

You're obviously not familiar with the kind of rhetoric that North Korea directs at South Korea. It's quite brutal in it's own right.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
Further, neither North Korea nor Iran are surrounded by those very same folk who make that vow and have the backing of billions in oil money and a worldwide propaganda network that has been lately very successful, and an international political network that control many if not all of the large geopolitical organizations like the UN.

Shiite Iran is surrounded by Sunnis, with billions in oil money and so on. Meanwhile, Gaza is surrounded and blockaded by the most powerful military in the region supported by several worldwide propaganda networks (known as the US corporate media). As for the part about controlling the UN, well, that's a joke.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
North Korea and Iran are not bombarded daily with rockets and high explosives and under constant thread of suicide bombings (which are occasionally successful).

How many rockets per day? I thought the wall took care of suicide bombers? Has the wall failed?

Quote: Original post by Bregma
I think you need to take context into account before comparing apples and rain barrels.

I think you need to stop fabricating context.

Quote: Original post by Bregma
I certainly don't support everything Israel does, but I can understand their approach to protecting themselves and their families. Especially given the way so many people around the world eagerly gobble the anti-Israeli propaganda that stands proudly erect in front of their faces.

As you eagerly gobble the pro-Israeli propaganda that stands proudly erect in front of your faces...

Quote: Original post by Bregma
I think rather than prejudging the situation because it's Israel, the best approach is to wait for more information and then judge the situation on the facts. The facts are not yet fully available.

The call after the 2008 massacre in Gaza to "wait for the facts to come out" only served to buy time for Israel and to defer accountability. When the facts came out in the form of the Goldstone Report, the propagandists quickly went to work denouncing Goldstone and delegitimizing his work, again, in order to avoid accountability. The facts will never be fully available and whatever facts do emerge will likewise be trashed if they contradict the claim that Israel is righteous in whatever it does because it's surrounded and afraid ...

Quote: Original post by Hnefi
Hamas is not the government of a nation. You can't be legally at war with a terrorist organization - hence all that mumble about "enemy combatants", remember? No, Israel is formally at peace, even if it doesn't do much to act that way. Or perhaps you can name the nation with which Israel is at war?

Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. It's the majority leader in the Palestinian parliament.

Quote: Oh come on, that's such BS. 10 soldiers shared a single handgun? You really believe that?

yes... because it's true. They were a non-lethal boarding force.

Quote: Why does it matter anyway? In the end, the Israelis killed about a dozen civilians who did nothing other than defend their ship with nonlethal force, which Israeli soldiers boarded on international waters.

you didn't watch any of the videos did you? Watch them and get back to me. You get even one person swinging a metal pole at you like a baseball bat and that's definitely lethal. let alone his two friends coming at you with knives.

Quote: According to what source? And seriously, what kind of contraband is that? SLINGSHOTS? Oh yeah, Hamas are going to raze the wall with slingshots, knives and bottles of lighting fluid.

Hey man. Contraband is contraband. A "well they only broke the law a little bit" defense should never hold up.


Let it be known, I am not taking sides in the blockade or the overall Israeli/Palestinian/Gaza conflict. Given the facts of the conflict, Israel was well within their rights to board the boats in the flotilla.

Quote: Original post by MaulingMonkey
I can't agree with calling it terrorism when it's the Israelis that start off getting beaten and attacked with what very much looks to me like potentially deadly force -- or at the very least, something easily mistakable for it. While it may have very well been illegal for them to board, the retaliation was most certainly upping the ante.

If Iran did this in the Persian Gulf it would be called terrorism, so ...

Israel sent commandos to commandeer the ship. I think it's likely that Israel wanted the groups that organized the flotilla to know that they would use deadly force if necessary, which would be a political message. Ergo, terrorism.

Quote: Original post by MaulingMonkey

Quote: That's too bad. I'm angry. I'm biased. Deal with it.

Good advice, of course. But it's hardly encouragement for people to put stock in your statements and opinions, or to hope for meaningful discussion.

I'm not averse to having my opinions challenged.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Well, it is obvious that some of the passengers weren't exactly peaceful. The weapons don't look very dangerous, but they are weapons anyway.

lol, they had slingshots. I guess those were for the kids in gaza to have fun killing jewish mice/pigeons...

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
The ship was believed to be carrying contraband

Sounds like a nice excuse. Like using white phosphorous as "smokescreens"

Quote: Original post by phantom
Sure, but when being boarded in international waters what do you expect?

If they had boarded them in their waters then the loss of lives would have been just as sad but at that point they would have had the right to do it.

End of the day they boarded ships in international waters, took over the ships and took them back to one of their ports and detained those on board.

If any other nation in the world had done this then no one would be defending them, but because its Israel suddenly it becomes touchy; never mind they are only allowing 1/4 of the aid into Gaza which is estimated by the UN as required. Never mind that they have apprently killed more people than the rocket attacks have done. Never mind that they are illegally occupying land. Never mind that they shelled a clearly marked UN Compound, killing those inside, despite them being told multiple times and being asked to stop.

While I agree that Israel has the right to exist and defend itself its actions go far beyond that line and are probably making things much worse for themselves as well.

Yep.

Egypt appears to have lifted it's blockade, at least temporarily.

Egypt opens Gaza border after Israel ship clash

Quote:
...
Officials in Egypt and Gaza said the crossing would open on Wednesday until further notice -- a step seen as an attempt by Cairo to deflect criticism of its role in imposing the blockade.

Rafah is the only point on Gaza's borders not controlled by Israel. Cairo, coordinating with Israel, has opened it only sparingly since Hamas seized control of Gaza three years ago.

A permanent opening of the crossing, which runs across a stretch of desert frontier riddled by hundreds of smuggling tunnels, would be a major boost for Hamas and a blow to efforts by Israel and its Western allies to cripple the Islamists.

However, a full, permanent opening is seen as unlikely.
...
Aid convoys, to which Egypt has in the past given limited access, would be able to use the crossing, subject to following Cairo's limitation that only food and medical supplies go in.

"Hard materials" -- apparently including concrete and steel which Gazans want to repair damage from an Israeli offensive last year -- would have to go via Israel, the Egyptian source said.

Israel has made clear since it halted a Turkish-backed, Gaza-bound aid convoy at sea on Monday that it will not ease its embargo.
...

On the propaganda front, here is an article about who was on those ships. Noticeably absent is any mention of who the Americans were.

Factbox: Details of activists aboard flotilla

That might be because one of the Americans on board was a former Ambassador.

EXCLUSIVE: American Onboard Attacked Flotilla Describes Chaos

Quote:
...
Peck returned with only the clothes on his back and the hat on his head, and his take on being ‘deported’ from Israel is bit humorous, given the difficulties he experienced, telling ABC NEWS that the Israelis told him, “You’ve broken Israeli law, I said ‘which one?’ They said you have entered the country illegally. I said I’m sorry. But if I’m brought into the country under armed escort that is not entering the country illegally. Forcibly. We’ll they don’t agree with that. I was deported so I suppose that goes on my record. “
...

Israel navy braced to intercept next Gaza aid ship

Quote:
(Reuters) - Activists vowed on Tuesday to try to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza with another ship, and an Israeli officer pledged to halt it, setting the stage for a fresh confrontation after Monday's deadly clash.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a converted merchant ship bought by pro-Palestinian activists and named after an American woman killed in the Gaza Strip in 2003, set off Monday from Malta, organizers said. "We are an initiative to break Israel's blockade of 1.5 million people in Gaza. Our mission has not changed and this is not going to be the last flotilla," Free Gaza Movement activist Greta Berlin, based in Cyprus, told Reuters.

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the vessel as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission. The ship was carrying 15 activists including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.
...
The Rachel Corrie was carrying medical equipment, wheelchairs, school supplies and cement, a material Israel has banned in Hamas-ruled Gaza, organizers said.

Mark Daly, a member of Ireland's upper house of parliament who had been due to join the convoy but was refused permission to leave Cyprus, told Reuters in Dublin that the ship had fallen behind the rest of the convoy because it was slower.
...

Cement!

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
Hamas isn't a terrorist organization. It's the majority leader in the Palestinian parliament.

Now you're going straight against what Israel says. Hamas is branded as a terrorist organization by, among others, the EU, the USA and Israel. Furthermore, this "parliament" you are referring to is not part of an actual state. There is no nation of Palestine, so there's no nation lead by Hamas for Israel to be at war with. Thus, my point stands - Israel is not formally at war, therefore not a "belligerent nation" as defined by the Helsinki principles, and therefore the regulations pertaining to belligerent nations do not currently apply to Israel.

If you're so well-versed in international law, you would have known this from the start.

Quote: yes... because it's true. They were a non-lethal boarding force.

So why were they carrying one handgun? Why didn't either all of them or none of them carry these weapons? And again, it doesn't matter anyway; it's the surrounding circumstances that are the main problem here.

Quote:

Quote: Why does it matter anyway? In the end, the Israelis killed about a dozen civilians who did nothing other than defend their ship with nonlethal force, which Israeli soldiers boarded on international waters.

you didn't watch any of the videos did you? Watch them and get back to me. You get even one person swinging a metal pole at you like a baseball bat and that's definitely lethal. let alone his two friends coming at you with knives.

Which does absolutely nothing to detract from the point I made.

Quote: Hey man. Contraband is contraband. A "well they only broke the law a little bit" defense should never hold up.

Really? Then why do you use that very defense in favour of Israel? A rather obvious double standard, don't you think?

Quote: Let it be known, I am not taking sides in the blockade or the overall Israeli/Palestinian/Gaza conflict. Given the facts of the conflict, Israel was well within their rights to board the boats in the flotilla.

Funny that not a single (non-Israeli) diplomat, government or recognized expert in international law seems to agree with you on that.