Quote: Original post by Hnefi

Quote: Original post by Straudos
It is illegal to attempt to run a blockade, and Israel is legally allowed to intercept in international waters.

No, they are not, which is the entire point of all the uproar.

It is completely legal to board a ship in international waters if they are attempting to run a blockade (see the Helsinki principles of the law in maritime neutrality). If they were in Israel's waters Israel could have done whatever it wanted. The Helsinki principles apply to international waters.

The link is in this thread, and the specific article pertaining to it is already quoted in this thread.

The legality of the blockade is questionable, but knowing that the blockade exists the boarding of the ship was totally within Israel's rights according to maritime law.

I feel bad for Israel here, because the amount of misinformation being spread paints them horribly. Anyone who understands international law and watches the videos of the attack should clearly see that this was totally unacceptable behavior by the passengers on the boat, and it is their behavior that caused the deaths not the Israelis.

Quote: Original post by lithos
from my understanding most(if not all) of the night video capture and several videos from news cameras have been released/leaked/whatever. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say there are quite a few logs of all communications as well.

I think your understanding is mistaken. The IDF has released all of it's footage? Don't be naive.

In raw video, reporters claim Israelis fired on activists before boarding ship

Quote:
...
However, in raw video captured by an Al Jazeera producer and published to YouTube late Monday, two journalists provide a play-by-play of the harrowing event as pops and cracks echo in the background. Even before the Israeli forces were aboard, one says, they were pelting the boat with tear gas and stun grenades, injuring numerous people.

Then he confirms the first death, saying the individual was killed by "munitions," but not specifying whether it was a bullet or something else. Then he confirms that Israeli forces were boarding the ship.

Another of the reporters featured in the video works for the Iranian network Press TV. "We are being hit by tear gas, stun grenades, we have navy ships on either side, helicopters overhead," he said. "We are being attacked from every single side. This is in international waters, not Israeli waters, not in the 68-mile exclusion zone. We are being attacked in international waters completely illegally."

"The organizers are telling me now, they are raising a white flag -- they are raising a white flag to the Israeli army," the Al Jazeera reporter said. "This is after one person has been killed; a civilian has been killed by munition. That number could be more ... Despite the white flag being raised, despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli army is still shooting, still firing live munitions."
...

">IDF Boarding Gaza Aid Flotilla

Quote: Original post by lithos
People were quite literally waiting with "blunt implements" where the commandos were going to land. and starting attacking and separating the commandos as they came down from the helicopter.

That would be a repeat of the "lynch mob" excuse that Netanyahu has been using. To that I have to ask why would a death squad be afraid of a lynch mob? And why was a death squad boarding a ship in international waters in the first place? Were they practicing their pirate play?

Quote: Original post by lithos
It's worth noting that 7 of the dead were the troops. when they're saying a range of 9 to 16 dead, and with all those troops with military gear it sounds like a pretty brutal affair(I'm assuming 9+7 is 16).

7 of the dead were commandos? Now I really think you've been propagandized. Maybe the names of the dead were released and I'm not aware of it yet, but if that's so then Israeli commandos must be really lame to have lost seven men to a lynch mob.



No weapons on stormed Turkish ship: Report A Turkish customs official on Monday denied Israeli allegations that activists aboard a Turkish aid ship for Gaza stormed by Israeli forces possessed weapons, the Anatolia news agency reported.

New boats headed to Gaza to challenge blockade Organizers of the Gaza aid flotilla that was the target of a deadly Israeli naval raid say they're sending two more ships to the area within the next few days.

Turkey threatens action; Israel on alert Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by Hnefi

Quote: Original post by Straudos
It is illegal to attempt to run a blockade, and Israel is legally allowed to intercept in international waters.

No, they are not, which is the entire point of all the uproar.

It is completely legal to board a ship in international waters if they are attempting to run a blockade (see the Helsinki principles of the law in maritime neutrality).

No, it isn't; in fact, this was covered in this very thread. The Helsinki principles only apply in the territorial waters of neutral nations. They do NOT in any way whatsoever apply to international waters, and it says so in the very first paragraph of the document in which the principles are written.

Quote: If they were in Israel's waters Israel could have done whatever it wanted.

Pretty much, though state-sanctioned murder of other nations citizens tend to cause reactions. But they weren't in Israels waters.

Quote: The Helsinki principles apply to international waters.

The link is in this thread, and the specific article pertaining to it is already quoted in this thread.

Indeed the link is in this thread; you'd do well to read the actual document, as I did. Then you'd see that it does NOT apply to international waters. I covered this in a response to your earlier link; I take it you didn't even read that post?

Furthermore, the Helsinki principles make an explicit exception of human aid; it specifically states, in section 5.3, that a blockade may not block humanitarian aid.

Quote: I feel bad for Israel here, because the amount of misinformation being spread paints them horribly. Anyone who understands international law and watches the videos of the attack should clearly see that this was totally unacceptable behavior by the passengers on the boat, and it is their behavior that caused the deaths not the Israelis.

Yes, poor Israel, who attack a civilian ship in international waters, and were forced to kill civilians armed with sticks. I'm sure the commandos were really traumatized. Poor them.

Seriously, not a single actual expert in international law has said anything other than that Israel committed a crime here, acting completely outside their rights. At least not as far as I've seen. Feel free to provide a counterexample; though preferably not one hired by Fox.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
That would be a repeat of the "lynch mob" excuse that Netanyahu has been using. To that I have to ask why would a death squad be afraid of a lynch mob? And why was a death squad boarding a ship in international waters in the first place? Were they practicing their pirate play?

A death squad? Where is this death squad? The death squad armed with paintball guns (you can see them in the videos)? Man Israel is pretty brutal if they've started killing people with paintball guns... what a horrible way to die.

On your Al Jazeera reporter, if you're going to take the Israeli reports as propaganda why would you not take his as the same? Similar sources have already said that the passengers didn't resist with any force, which is clearly false.

Quote: No, it isn't; in fact, this was covered in this very thread. The Helsinki principles only apply in the territorial waters of neutral nations. They do NOT in any way whatsoever apply to international waters, and it says so in the very first paragraph of the document in which the principles are written.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

edit: another bit
"104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted"
Israel was allowed to search the vessels if they were humanitarian.

Quote: Furthermore, the Helsinki principles make an explicit exception of human aid; it specifically states, in section 5.3, that a blockade may not block humanitarian aid.

The ship was believed to be carrying contraband (and was as defined in the Helsinki principles).

Quote: Yes, poor Israel, who attack a civilian ship in international waters, and were forced to kill civilians armed with sticks. I'm sure the commandos were really traumatized. Poor them.

There were 10 soldiers armed with paintball guns vs. 50 or so men armed with knives, poles, chairs, stun grenades, firebombs, slingshots, and various other blunt instruments.

A 20 pound wrench can still fuck your day up regardless of it being a weapon or not.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: Original post by Hnefi
The armed commandos boarded a ship without permission on international waters. If they wanted to talk, they could have sent an unarmed negotiator, after receiving permission for such a negotiator to board the ship. Or they could have waited for the ship to enter Israeli waters, in which case they would have had the right to board the ship.

To be clear, the ship had repeatedly attempted to go through a blockade. It refused repeatedly to dock at an Israeli port and have the goods taken by land to gaza. Israel was well within their rights to board the vessel according to maritime law.

"Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion."

To be clear as muddy water. The flotilla had not breached the perimeter of the blockade zone. The claim that it had "repeatedly attempted to go through a blockade" is false. Your remarks sound remarkably similar to what the Israeli Ambassador to the US said on PBS New Hour last night. Are you simply repeating the propaganda lies your hearing on the news?

To be clear, the propaganda lies repeatedly attempted to go through a blockade in his mind. They refused repeatedly to dock and allow themselves to be sorted for their truth content...

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: But don't tell me there's a problem with trying to repel armed invaders boarding your ship without permission on international waters. That's akin to saying you're not allowed to try to repel an armed burglar who's broken into your house.

To be clear, the first wave of soldiers were armed with paintball guns (I'm assuming filled with pepper or some crowd deterent). The intention was to go to the bridge and convince the captain to take the ship into an Israeli port. Within seconds, those troops were attacked with metal poles, chairs, and knives and one soldier was thrown overboard and some soldiers were taken hostage. That is when the troops with lethal weapons were called in.

To be clear as mud. The intention was to commandeer the ship and that's exactly what happened.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
I blame the captain of the ship for being so bullheaded resulting in all of the deaths and injuries that happened. It could have all been avoided if the ships would have gone to an Israeli port and had the goods transported by land.

I blame the Israeli government for being so bullheaded that it would send a death squad to commandeer a civilian ship on the high seas. I blame the Israeli government for setting up the blockade of Gaza in the first place. I blame the Egyptian government for going along with the blockade. I blame US government for responding to all this with a wink and a nod.

The argument that the goods could have gone through an Israeli port to be transported by land is specious. Your remarks sound remarkably similar to what the Israeli Ambassador to the US said on PBS New Hour last night. Are you simply repeating the propaganda lies your hearing on the news?

You probably don't remember what happened to the Viva Palestina relief convoy back in January. It wasn't reported on much in the US.

Viva Palestina's bumpy road

George Galloway MP deported from Egypt, say activists

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care
It should be noted that there were other ships that were boarded, and none of them resulted in injury as far as I know.

3 of the 6 ships were cargo ships not passenger ships.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: What crime could the civilians possibly be accused of?

If Israel is in the right, the prisoners could be charged with any number of crimes. They attacked uniformed soldiers.

Do you also blame murder victims for catching bullets?

Israel admits it intercepted the ships in international waters. That means nothing it did was in the right from the start of the incident onward. That won't stop Israel from charging the people it kidnapped. They're playing junior superpower to the USA. This is what rendition looks like.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: No, it isn't; in fact, this was covered in this very thread. The Helsinki principles only apply in the territorial waters of neutral nations. They do NOT in any way whatsoever apply to international waters, and it says so in the very first paragraph of the document in which the principles are written.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

Ah yes - except that Israel declares itself to be at peace, not war, which disqualifies it as a belligerent state, thus making the above rule inapplicable. Try again.

Quote: The ship was believed to be carrying contraband (and was as defined in the Helsinki principles).

Yeah, sure. Food, supplies and building materials.

Quote:
There were 10 soldiers armed with paintball guns vs. 50 or so men armed with knives, poles, chairs, stun grenades, firebombs, slingshots, and various other blunt instruments.

Paintball guns and handguns loaded with live ammo. Also, several armed helicopters, several dozens more armed soldiers on standby, and several warships.

Poor, poor Israeli commandos.

Quote: A 20 pound wrench can still fuck your day up regardless of it being a weapon or not.

Sure. So don't send soldiers to board the ship without permission. Send a negotiator if you have to send someone.

Quote: Original post by phantom
Sure, but when being boarded in international waters what do you expect?

Sure, okay, I'll fault Israeli for mistaking the target of their boarding to be a peaceful bunch, or at least having enough restraint to not escalate things into (further?) violence.

Mind you, Iran repeatedly boards navy boats without having it's sailors attacked. In arguably national waters, granted, but all the same in waters those being boarded at the time believed themselves to have the right to operate in.

What matters, ultimately, is preventing such tragedies from reoccurring. This means understanding both sides of the conflict -- their circumstances, their mistakes. Not LessBread's sensationalism.

Quote: Original post by Hnefi
Ah yes - except that Israel declares itself to be at peace, not war, which disqualifies it as a belligerent state, thus making the above rule inapplicable. Try again.

no it doesn't. Israel is at war with Hamas.

Quote: Paintball guns and handguns loaded with live ammo. Also, several armed helicopters, several dozens more armed soldiers on standby, and several warships.

not hand guns. A single hand gun. I don't know how much ammo your hand gun carries, but I doubt it's 50 bullets. And I seriously doubt that matters when you are being beaten and stabbed.

Quote:

Quote: A 20 pound wrench can still fuck your day up regardless of it being a weapon or not.

Sure. So don't send soldiers to board the ship without permission. Send a negotiator if you have to send someone.

oh yea... that's a great idea. Then instead of trained soldiers they'll have an untrained more valuable hostage.

Quote: Yeah, sure. Food, supplies and building materials.

1. Building materials are considered contraband by Israel after Hamas repeatedly used them to build fortified bunkers rather than build houses for their people.
2. hundreds of slingshots, hundreds of knives, and firebombs.

Quote: Original post by Drathis
I side with Israel. Certainly the crew werent peaceful, everyone knew where they were going. They played a game of chicken and neither side backed down. I don't give a rats ass if the ship was still in international waters. The Israel doesn't do this to other ships on international waters. Everyone knows why this ship was boarded. This nothing like piracy and you can't argue with analogies either.

I think I agree with you here. I'm deeply sorry for the people who died and those who were injured. I'm sorry too that the Israely troops made this operation on international waters in such a way that now everyone has another excuse to hate Israel.

To those waving the "legality" flag over this matter, you should accept for once the fact that when it comes down to the US/Russia/Israel/MuslimLand the laws do not tend to be followed/applied to the letter.

Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care

Quote: No, it isn't; in fact, this was covered in this very thread. The Helsinki principles only apply in the territorial waters of neutral nations. They do NOT in any way whatsoever apply to international waters, and it says so in the very first paragraph of the document in which the principles are written.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

edit: another bit
"104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted"
Israel was allowed to search the vessels if they were humanitarian.

Quote: Furthermore, the Helsinki principles make an explicit exception of human aid; it specifically states, in section 5.3, that a blockade may not block humanitarian aid.

The first part I have a problem with is that this isn't an international armed conflict. What were the reasonable grounds to search? How does cement become contraband?