Quote: Original post by Iftah
Valderman, not all Muslims are evil and the Muslim religion isn't inherently bad. But you can't deny Muslim are involved in many conflicts, much more than their percentage of the population, search for armed conflicts and count. Of the top of my head there are Afganistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria, and of course Israel.

Granted, in this silly heuristic, Jews are involved in a greater percentage of conflicts than their population, but a statistics of many cases is more conclusive than of one case.

Now if, for example, black people are much more involved in crime than white people, that doesn't mean the color is to blame. It doesn't mean you should prejudge a person by its color (although it is not without sense if no other data is available). Special zoom in is needed to deeply understand the root of the problem.

I don't know the background of half the conflicts, so my guess is just a guess,
but seems to me the (over simplified) root of the problem is that in many backward places, the Muslim religion is easily twisted to encourage great acts of evil and add to it a desire by radical Islamists to impose their extreme religious rule over other nations.
Take a look of the TED talk Inside a school for suicide bombers.

As far as I know, Muslim is the only religion that promises 72 virgins in heaven for martyrdom.

I agree completely with this post. Take a place full of misery and/or superstition, promise something awesome in return for doing your bidding, appeal to your own version of $FAITH and you have a personal army. It doesn't really help that the Quran is nearly as hard to interpret as patent claims either, but then again, if there's a will, the possibilities for interesting interpretations are endless regardless of the value of $FAITH.

EDIT: s/FATE/FAITH/

[Edited by - Valderman on June 1, 2010 10:54:46 PM]

Quote: Original post by Iftah
But you can't deny Muslim are involved in many conflicts, much more than their percentage of the population, search for armed conflicts and count. Of the top of my head there are Afganistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Nigeria, and of course Israel.

Interestingly all of them also got the British empire treatment.

Quote: Original post by trzy

Quote: Original post by owl

Quote: Original post by trzy
Didn't Israel offer to allow the flotilla to dock at Ashdod and transport humanitarian supplies by land after inspection?

Of course they did. But how Hamas would break the blockade and provide themselves with the necesary weaponery to kill more people then?

Heh, seriously. But to be honest, the whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt to begin with. According to the article I posted (and I've heard this before), a hundred trucks carrying supplies cross into Gaza daily already. The blockade was announced and everyone knew this was going to happen -- it's exactly what everyone wanted.

A publicity stunt? How much did they pay the IDF to go along with the gag?

Yes, you've heard about the 100 trucks before because it has become a major talking point in the excuses used to justify these murders. The counter point is that those 100 trucks are 25% of what is needed. Have you heard this one: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." (Gaza on brink of implosion as aid cut-off starts to bite 2006) And did you hear what the UN and WHO had to say about health conditions in Gaza? "61% of people in the Gaza Strip are considered to be food insecure and are reliant on food assistance from humanitarian agencies for their health and well being. ... Of those food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years. For these children, long-term food insecurity is linked to rising levels of acute malnutrition and stunted growth." Gaza Agriculture Sector Struggles to Survive

Quote: For starters I never mentioned islamic terrorism. If you dare to quote me exactly where I said that I'd take back all I said and give up my original point (that you seem to be so childishly trying to twist).

Well, since you used this article by a very distinguished person to support your claims, I sort of thought that the terrorism allegations it contains would be part of that support. The word "terrorism" with various inflections occurs seven times in the article's six paragraphs.

Quote: Sencondly, from your own document

0.4% of acts of terrorism are perpetrated by muslims, whereas 50% of convictions regard islamic terrorism. What does that tell you? Me, it tells that either the justice system is harder on muslims because, as Yann L says, they're "from the outside," or islamic terrorists really suck at what they're doing. It still doesn't change the fact that acts of islamic terrorism is vanishingly rare, especially when compared to other motivations.

Quote: Original post by Valderman

Quote: For starters I never mentioned islamic terrorism. If you dare to quote me exactly where I said that I'd take back all I said and give up my original point (that you seem to be so childishly trying to twist).

Well, since you used this article by a very distinguished person to support your claims, I sort of thought that the terrorism allegations it contains would be part of that support. The word "terrorism" with various inflections occurs seven times in the article's six paragraphs.

Quote: Sencondly, from your own document

0.4% of acts of terrorism are perpetrated by muslims, whereas 50% of convictions regard islamic terrorism. What does that tell you? Me, it tells that either the justice system is harder on muslims because, as Yann L says, they're "from the outside," or islamic terrorists really suck at what they're doing. It still doesn't change the fact that acts of islamic terrorism is vanishingly rare, especially when compared to other motivations.

Get out of here.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Islam seeks to convert the entire world, for it is the will of God, in contrast with Christianity and Judaism.

Christianity doesn't seek to convert the entire world? Hahahahahahaha.

Quote: Original post by trzy
Christianity began peacefully ...

And then the Romans got a hold of it!

Quote: Original post by trzy
... after fostering modern liberal ideas such as human rights.

And it only took 1776 years too! Wow!!!

Quote: Original post by trzy
Islam cannot be reconciled with the Enlightenment Era principles that are fundamental to modern civilization: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of faith, and rational government.

Neither can conservative fundamentalist Christianity but I don't hear you complaining about that...

I was going to post something about Christianity, but instead I will have a rootbeer float.

Quote: Original post by Valderman

Quote: Original post by trzy
1) Islam emphasizes submission to the faith rather than voluntary conversion and a personal relationship with God.

Am I right to understand this as a claim that Islam demands conversion, even of the unwilling? You might want to provide a source for that.

It's in the Quran

Quote: ...fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

I can't say I'm a massive fan of christianity, but it's not as bad as islam.

The root cause is a lack of critical thinking. Most people can think for themselves to the extent where they disregard the more outrageous tenets of their religion. Enlightened people take it a step further and realise that the concept of religion/the supernatural itself is almost certainly false*. However there is always a large demographic that unthinkingly accepts whatever bullshit is pushed onto them in the name of dogma. These are the people who support the likes of falwell, robertson, ahmadinejad, ratzinger and the other horrific idiots that keep screwing up the world.



*yeah, god doesn't exist. You can delude yourself all you want, but it won't change the facts. Plus, I'm angry. Deal with it.

Quote: Original post by ChaosEngineEnlightened people take it a step further and realise that the concept of religion/the supernatural itself is almost certainly false*.

That is a very dangerous train of thought. There are a very many brilliant people that feel that there is a higher power.

This is one thing that our generation almost certainly won't know till we are dead. To imply that one train of though is right on the matter right now is arrogant at best and ignorant at worst.

I don't want to argue over it in this thread, but I get very upset when people infer that I, much of my family, many of my friends, and countless others are less intelligent or less enlightened because we choose to believe in something that exists outside of the physical world.

Oh look, it's devolved into a "is Islam evil" war. Thread over.

LessBread, I think starting a new thread would be justified, if you still want to wade into this mess. Owl, I strongly recommend you stay out of any future threads on the subject, and consider it a favor that I'm not doing more.