Facepalm. Total Islamist win, by shaming Israel on the international stage, by sabotaging, perhaps terminally, the Turkey - Israel alliance and therefore by dealing a huge blow to the Turkish secular / military side which is responsible for and supportive of the alliance with Israel. One hopes this fiasco won't be made any worse by adding sanctions against Israel to the list.

Quote: Original post by Bregma

Quote: Original post by phantom
What annoys me is that if this had been done by someone like NK or Iran the US/UK, at the very least, would be rattling sabres about now...

The difference being that nobody has vowed in the case of North Korea or Iran that they would not rest until the sand of the desert ran red with the blood of children and that every last man, woman, and child of some ethnic groups in those countries would be driven into the sea and drowned. Further, neither North Korea nor Iran are surrounded by those very same folk who make that vow and have the backing of billions in oil money and a worldwide propaganda network that has been lately very successful, and an international political network that control many if not all of the large geopolitical organizations like the UN.

North Korea and Iran are not bombarded daily with rockets and high explosives and under constant thread of suicide bombings (which are occasionally successful).

I think you need to take context into account before comparing apples and rain barrels.

I certainly don't support everything Israel does, but I can understand their approach to protecting themselves and their families. Especially given the way so many people around the world eagerly gobble the anti-Israeli propaganda that stands proudly erect in front of their faces.

I think rather than prejudging the situation because it's Israel, the best approach is to wait for more information and then judge the situation on the facts. The facts are not yet fully available.

Wha... wait a minute, are you actually serious? Where do you get your propaganda? Certainly the attempt to break the blockade can be seen as a political stunt, and sure the folks in improvised riot gear that beat up the soldiers are not your ordinary peacenik, but to justify the Israeli mode of "self defense" in this way is pretty biased.

"... an international political network that control many if not all of the large geopolitical organizations like the UN."

"... so many people around the world eagerly gobble the anti-Israeli propaganda that stands proudly erect in front of their faces."

Wow, just wow.

This thread once again demonstrates why there will never be peace in the Middle East.

This behaviour from Israel is truly appalling.

Let me get this straight; they were only allowed to exist as a nation because of some dodgy legislation from the British government and the League of Nations following World War I, followed by splitting Palestine into three and planting themselves there and unsettling the indigenous Arab population? LAWL

They were handed the country on a plate, enjoy an extraordinary level of protection from the US, then behave illegally with impunity? If this had been perpetrated by Iran or Syria, we wouldn't be having this discussion because somebody would have pushed a big red button by now.

I actually used to know an Israeli guy a couple of years back and we discussed stuff like this - even he thinks the Israeli authorities are being generally heavy handed.

Quote: Original post by ukdeveloper
Let me get this straight; they were only allowed to exist as a nation because of some dodgy legislation from the British government and the League of Nations following World War I, followed by splitting Palestine into three and planting themselves there and unsettling the indigenous Arab population? LAWL

And then (As I understand it), they invaded the Gaza strip, then built (and continue to build) settlements there (Which is against international law), complain when the locals fight back, attack (recently) using white phosphorous which is against the Geneva Convention, and now go and board a ship in international waters, also against international law.

I side with Israel. Certainly the crew werent peaceful, everyone knew where they were going. They played a game of chicken and neither side backed down. I don't give a rats ass if the ship was still in international waters. The Israel doesn't do this to other ships on international waters. Everyone knows why this ship was boarded. This nothing like piracy and you can't argue with analogies either.

Ah, the old 'the law is ok until such a time as I don't agree with it' defense.

Yeah, bullshit.

I can't agree with calling it terrorism when it's the Israelis that start off getting beaten and attacked with what very much looks to me like potentially deadly force -- or at the very least, something easily mistakable for it. While it may have very well been illegal for them to board, the retaliation was most certainly upping the ante.

Quote: That's too bad. I'm angry. I'm biased. Deal with it.

Good advice, of course. But it's hardly encouragement for people to put stock in your statements and opinions, or to hope for meaningful discussion.

Sure, but when being boarded in international waters what do you expect?

If they had boarded them in their waters then the loss of lives would have been just as sad but at that point they would have had the right to do it.

End of the day they boarded ships in international waters, took over the ships and took them back to one of their ports and detained those on board.

If any other nation in the world had done this then no one would be defending them, but because its Israel suddenly it becomes touchy; never mind they are only allowing 1/4 of the aid into Gaza which is estimated by the UN as required. Never mind that they have apprently killed more people than the rocket attacks have done. Never mind that they are illegally occupying land. Never mind that they shelled a clearly marked UN Compound, killing those inside, despite them being told multiple times and being asked to stop.

While I agree that Israel has the right to exist and defend itself its actions go far beyond that line and are probably making things much worse for themselves as well.

Quote: Original post by Drathis
I side with Israel.

You agree that cement is a deadly weapon that people living on the Gaza citizen cannot have?

Quote: The Israel doesn't do this to other ships on international waters. Everyone knows why this ship was boarded. This nothing like piracy and you can't argue with analogies either.

While this is true, no other ships are delivering aid directly the gaza strip.

Quote: Certainly the crew werent peaceful, everyone knew where they were going. They played a game of chicken and neither side backed down. I don't give a rats ass if the ship was still in international waters.

I agree that the intent of the Free Gaza Movement was to engage in an ambush with weapons, both premeditated, like slingshots and improvised, like chair legs.

However, there are ways of dealing with this without resorting to a hostile boarding and lethal force. At the very least, waiting until they were out of international waters. By being so heavy handed, Israel may have won the battle and lost the war.