Quote: Original post by 833
I should start off by saying good luck. It's a wise move to put your design doc up for review or whatever. No one is going to steal your idea and with any luck you can get feedback that will create something better.

I had to reply to this one seperately. You want to make a bet on that "nobody is going to steal it" comment? That is exactly what has happened every single time, without fail, that I have shown a "work example" to a computer game company. Every single time.

Wanna bet on that one?

3-4 years from now most MMO games will be using Pirate Dawn's underlying structure. The RPG waiting to be made from it is quite obvious. These people can't resist my work, I give them "Gold Fever".

I already know the reaction this post will get, but everything I have said here is 100% true. Just wait 3 or 4 years and then compare the MMO games to Pirate Dawn:-)

You guys really do need to read it. I'm not an idiot. I wouldn't be saying these things if they weren't all right there in black and white waiting to be read. For a few examples of the "revolutionary" stuff carefully read the sections on "Corporations and Cartels (Player Controlled Organizations)" (I5.0). Then try "Ship Design" (L0.0), "Ships" (M0.0), and "Foreign Technology" (R5.0). You might also try to carefully read and fully contemplate all of the implications of "Terrain" (H5.0) and "Communications" (L2.5), and their interations with each other as well and the implcations of that. Just for starters, there is really more too it that that making it "the first true MMO game".

They can't not imitate Pirate Dawn, it's too valuable too them not too. The only question is... is there a single person in the entire industry with the integrity to just hire me and make the original.

I doubt it. But I intend to find out on my way to retirement.

-- Marc Michalik (A.K.A. Pirate_Lord)
Lost Art Studios -- www.piratedawn.com

Pirate_Lord, I bought Game Maker 7 today. I know, what a silly idea! Well, I don't like programming. I'm an aspiring game designer. I, just like you, like to write documents, flesh out concepts and designs that I think are really smashing. Why did I get the software? Simple: I felt I really needed to roughly understand what programmers, level designers, scenario writers, graphic designers, game planners, etc. did. In order to appreciate their work, I felt I had to do it myself. In addition, I am well aware that text alone will never suffice. A visual demonstration is always superior, especially if it's playable. And it should be short, straight to the point, catchy, interesting, fun, and realistic.

I would never hire someone with seemingly no working experience, put him in charge of the entire project as some creative director or lead game designer, and give him a whooping budget to create an MMORPG. Especially someone who's been working for several years on one game, making it complete through text, rather than presenting new concepts and ideas... where's the creativity? I, independantly and as a very non-avid MMO player (I have a level 7 priest on WoW, a Level 16 Warrior on FFXI and have played a bit of PSO), thought up about stuff like completely independant PC games where players really were in charge, except, I realized few players would want to do whatever boring things NPC's did.


But my absolute main point is, the game industry don't give a damn about what's revolutionary. They want money. And most likely, the creative minds will want to please the gamers. How? FUN games. Most of my game ideas are not particularly original, but they come with original and innovative concepts, twists and ideas, and always, ALWAYS, does the gameplay and fun factor determine what to use or not use. When I pick up a game, I'll be damned if I'm not having fun within 30-60 minutes. I'm not patient. I grew up with games that begin 5 seconds after you pressed START (Mario, being a prime example here). I can't be arsed to play a game where everyone's telling me "leach level 30! it'll get soo good then!!!" when it's taken me 50 hours to reach level 15... No, no, no.

Your game needs to be fun. Your presentation of the game needs to have the "catch!" if you know what I mean. My dream is to be a game designer but for now, treat me as though I wanted to buy your game. Would I buy Pirate Dawn? No... why? It's an MMO, and all MMO's I've played have dull starts. How do I know yours is different? As a consumer, how would I know yours isn't another MMO that comes with "revolutionary" game aspects that I think are not particularly fun. Why should I choose your game over that new Zelda game for the DS that I've been eyeing out?

Tell you what. I'll say your MMO is the best MMO (in my opinion, at least) if I read through that document and say I like it. In fact, no, I won't read it. Give me a page, ONE PAGE, on Microsoft WORD explaining why this would truly differ from MMO's and still be incredibly fun and not tiresome to play.

I'm going to sleep now, and tomorrow I'm going to replay Alundra. Again. Because the game is too darn fun. "Who would've guessed that Sarah would turn out to be a psycho bitch?"

Everyone think of a color between red and yellow...
If you thought of green you stole my idea.

There are only so many things technology will allow. There is a reason you can't copyright an idea. If you gave a description to 10 artists/programmers and asked each of them to make it, every single one would be different. It's all in the execution of that idea that makes "something".

Sometimes it sucks to hear you're not on the right track when you've invested so much, but to ignore your players/peers may not be the best idea.

The people on these boards really are here to help. Don't think of this as negative advice, it's suggestions to improve.

The first roadblock you seem to have missed is people don't want to read your GDD. If you really do want people to read it, cater to your audience...see what they want and help them understand your vision.

Again, it looks like you've put a fair amount of work into this. Put a little more in and take it to the next level. No one I saw here is saying stop.

Good luck,

Quote: Original post by Pirate_Lord
3-4 years from now most MMO games will be using Pirate Dawn's underlying structure. The RPG waiting to be made from it is quite obvious. These people can't resist my work, I give them "Gold Fever".

What is the big hook? I quickly skimmed your website and the game there basically seemed to be EVE Online. Maybe I'm missing something, but I didn't see anything that revolutionary.

Quote: Original post by Pirate_Lord
The last thing that a design document needs is a bunch of pictures getting in the way. Amatuers need the pretty pictures to distract from the fact that they are incapable of desiging a game on paper and their "design document" is actually 20-40 pages of vague notes that is mostly irrelivant story. Pirate Dawn is actually a playable game. If someone is such a moron that they need pretty pictures to look at or the design document is too much for them, then they really have no business making such decisions in the first place.

You reeeally need to work on your attitude :)

As others already said, technical document does not need pictures (although diagrams and schematics would help a lot), but if you are trying to sell your idea, you need something to get people interesed. A short demo of the gameplay and a little concept art goes a long way.

Okay, I was curious...

I red the section (L2.5) COMMUNICATIONS. I can see that limiting the range of communication could be a good thing for a strategic gameplay, but degrading of chat messages? That would just be annoying... it would force players to spam their chat messages so that they would be heard. And custom WAV files? Is that possible? And if it were, how can the game be played by 8 year old kids, when all the teens have their WAVs full of profanity.

You talk a lot about realism, but since you have worked in the game industry, you should know that realism != fun.

The whole "subspace on steroids meets trade wars on steroids" intrigues me, but I can't bring myself to read something that long just to decide whether or not I believe you are the ultimate misunderstood game designer or not (assuming I had the experience or authority for my opinion to mean anything anyway).

Perhaps you should explain, briefly, what exactly about your design would make this the #2 MMO of all time, what is so completely revolutionary about it, etc. Saying "you have to read 150+ pages before I will bother explaining why my idea is so cool" is not a good way to get people to read.

If it is so truly awesome after all, to the point that people can see the genius behind it, you might be able to pull together a team willing to work on it. Screw EA and the rest, they want to do what they always do: make money (preferably low-risk money). People have made indie MMOs before, and some of them are even pretty good. If you have something extremely unique (i.e. "risky" in huge company terms) you can carve a niche for yourself with some hard work and a good team.

Please realize though that you might also just be another guy with the ultimate video game idea, there are a lot of those around here. And don't take that as an insult, I am one of those guys too (I just don't go around telling people about it :)

Well, I had to stop reading once I got to about page 19 because you use 'too' when you should be using 'to' WAY too often. I'm a language freak as some people on these forums may know and it was driving me insane.

Anyway, after reading all the basic ideas and whatnot, I have to say, completely honestly, that game sounds really, really, really... boring. Who wants to fly backward and forward between two planets over and over and over again trading stuff with the occasional chance you'll meet an 'enemy' and get locked in mortal combat. If anything, you'll have everyone on the alternate zones because they're the only things that look fun.

Also, you confused me at one point - "It’s been lost in an industry obsessed with 3D graphics as this genre doesn’t lend itself to stunning graphics and is fundamentally a “2D” game… " Are you saying here that your game, while having 3D graphics, will only allow one plane of movement? Well, there go the alternate zones as well because dogfights are no fun with two-dimensional movement.

Have a rethink about some of the ideas, put in some images to give us an idea:

Quote: Original post by 833
If you gave a description to 10 artists/programmers and asked each of them to make it, every single one would be different.

That's exactly the same with us, you give x-hundred gamedev.net members a ~200-page document and each of them will imagine a different game. Make some pictures or a demo - If you've saved some companies game from death then you should be able to throw together a simple demo without the MMO-ness.

And just for one last scathing comment:

Quote: Original post by Pirate_Lord
I had to reply to this one seperately (<-spelling error, btw). You want to make a bet on that "nobody is going to steal it" comment? That is exactly what has happened every single time, without fail, that I have shown a "work example" to a computer game company. Every single time.

Wanna bet on that one?

I won't steal you're idea; I only steal the good ones. Listen to the people here, they know what they're talking about more than I do.

If I were you, I wouldn't be surprised why you're getting a lot of negative feedback - no-one likes someone who thinks they know it all, believe me, I have to watch myself on that front often as well, but if you've been searching for a job for over 20 years, you must've learnt enough social skills for a sense of humility to eventuate; but obviously not. It's not a revolutionary idea at all, really. To say this is still 10 years ahead of its time is a little narcissistic to say the least. Get over yourself and maybe start developing the idea yourself if you're as good as you claim.

Sorry for being overly scathing, but people who act like you do need to be shot down in flames, as do I on the odd occasion.

[EDIT]

After re-reading your second post, Pirate_Lord, I get the feeling that this is all a big joke. Am I wrong? The comment about there being 'no doubt' that it would the '#2 MMO in 1999 and now' and that it will be the 'most imitated by MMO games that follow it'. Sounds like a bit of a farce to be honest - no-one's that arrogant.

[/EDIT]

[Edited by - NickHighIQ on December 6, 2007 9:41:21 PM]

Now I don't normally (okay ever; feel special) stoop to this level, but here goes my rating.
[flame on]
- I never said that you said it was the greatest thing since slice bread. What I was saying is that that is how it comes across, and it's not good.
- Calling everyone that would like a diagram an idiot is also not good. Sorry I haven't had 9 years to digest your ideas.
- I spent about 3 hours today going over some of the most boring reading material I've ever seen because I felt bad for you and was trying to help out. Obviously you are beyond help and I see exactly why you haven't had the success you feel you deserve. Humility goes a long way and you should be old enough to understand that.
- I hope someone does take your Butt Pirate idea and makes a ton off of it. Good luck with retirement, maybe you'll find something you're successful with.
- Right now I would hate me since I normally don't like people perpetuating threads like this, so I hope you guys will forgive me this once. I won't be replying again, I don't have 9 years to properly understand the genius and participate in a meaningful discussion.
[flame off]

[misplacedHumor]
At 833:
I was thinking of green before you were even born. In fact I was ideaing green before colors existed so it couldn't possibly be yours.
[/misplacedHumor]

I've read through most of the preview information, but to be quite honest I haven't really found anything out. I know you probably have much greater detail in the main document, but the summary is arguably the most important bit, so that I know whether or not I'd like to read more. It needs to be quick and to the point, and make me want to read on. There's no use stating over and over again how revolutionary your game will be; you should be using that time telling me, in as few words as possible, precisely why your game will be so revolutionary.

For instance, I gather from the mention of "Magnetic Accelerator Cannons" and "Lightning Streams" that there is some kind of combat involved. Now, truth be told I'm a real sucker for an interesting combat system; that's always the first thing I look at when I'm deciding whether or not to buy a game. But, your summary gives nothing away other than i) the system has been designed by an exceptionally talented designer, and ii) it is as in depth as chess. What, in as few words as possible, is the combat like? Is it turn-based? Real-time? Quasi-real-time? Is it point and click? Will it feel more like a shooter or a flight-sim? Reading your summary I can probably think of a dozen totally different games that match the description.

I know you're going to say "it's all in the design document", but I'm not going to read the design document until my interest is perked, and the summary has not perked my interest.

Although I do wish you the best, I agree that this will likely lead to stolen ideas. And while I do believe you have an effective attitude for selling refrigerators, the fact is you cannot sell a game idea like this. Other people have been shying away from saying it, but arrogance typically doesn't sell things. And you are being incredibly arrogant. Your first post has an incredible amount of "I"s in it where it should have had "Pirate Dawn"s or "my game"s. Regardless of whether your game is truly the next great MMO, it is important to start the sale of the game by explaining why it will be superior rather than explaining how everything else is inferior.

In all honesty, your best bet would be to create a mock-up and demonstrate how enjoyable your concept can be. You said it could be a board game. Make it one! Have people play it. Hell, give the board game away for free. Allow people to print everything they need to play. If you did that, you would have an additional argument against IP thieves as well.

Best of luck, sir! I admire what you are trying to do.


And on a side note:

Quote: Original post by NickHighIQ
Well, I had to stop reading once I got to about page 19 because you use 'too' when you should be using 'to' WAY too often. I'm a language freak as some people on these forums may know and it was driving me insane.

I agree that it is important to have decent grammar when trying to sell something. And I noticed quite a bit of interesting grammar in said document.

Quote:
Are you saying here that you're game, while having 3D graphics, will only allow one plane of movement?

I love irony.