quote: My personal theory is that if a person hasn't read a ton of books and started composing fiction before they graduate high school, they are just not ever going to be a (non-hack) writer.

Ironically, Damon Knight, a likely more-accomplished writer (and writing instructor) than anyone posting to this board, suggests that many ought to not take up writing until their early 30s. He suggests this so that individuals can get out of their extended adolescences and start seeing the world from the viewpoints of multiple characters as opposed to writing egocentric fantasies about their idealized selves.

The above rings true from my experiences reading fiction and game storylines on the net: there are way too many Mary Sue writers out there extolling their greatness and importance to all who will listen.

The second problem (and where I'm currently stuck as a programmer/designer turning author) is that a large number of game stories have no real soul or meaning. In my own case, everything I write is about objects and events. No one buys the motivations of my (attempts at) characters, but they sure love the gadgets I design.

For game creation, this issue is much more insidious than the former problem IMO because one might never progress beyond this stage and yet still create fantastic game premises and levels with such skills alone. But it's not engaging storytelling.

So here we are. It's easy enough to escape the first problem with a decent fanboy filter. And getting a real author will let you create real characters. But what next? How do you plop these guys down into a world where they can be killed at any time without Deus Ex Machina to the extreme? What do you do when they die? How do you insure the protagonist meets them in the first place without forcing the plot and yet preventing it from drifting aimlessly?

My initial take is that you create personalities as opposed to characters. Next, you write and record a lot of canned dialog: probably an hour or more per major personality in order to capture its idiom. Then you drop them into the plot, giving them dramatic objectives to achieve. If they don't manage to achieve it, then someone else subsumes their role just like when some PITA actor in a soap opera develops a habit for nose-candy and it's off to Betty Ford with him/her. Once they achieve their objective, they can hang around, or you can kill them off, send them to the frontier, or whatever.

If the protagonist has run around the world for an hour or so without intersecting the plot in any way, you bring the plot to the player. If said protagonist is determined to stay out of it, that's cool (gaming is about choices, right?), but you bend reality in a dream-like fashion just enough to insure knowledge of the big bad game world out there.











Edited by - varelse on January 31, 2002 5:07:11 PM

Edited by - varelse on January 31, 2002 5:07:41 PM

quote: Original post by Tacit
And the technical end often plays primadonne and decides they''re too good to have to learn basic storytelling techniques, which is why the majority of games that could benefit from having well-written scripts, characters, settings, and story outlines, don''t.

neato game engine without a good story == an ok game
neato story without a good engine == neato story in the bottom drawer
personally, i DO think storytelling is important, but it has to come second to the actual completion of a game.

quote: I would bet that, being a solid (even good) writer of a variety of styles and for a variety of media, if I chose to, in five years I could become a much better coder than most of you good coders could become writers.

this is truly possible, maybe you are an exceptional learner, or one of those good writers who can also manage to understand logic. however, generally speaking, most people who have a natural talent for creative writing seem to think that anything technical (i.e. programming, math, whatever) is against their dignity or something. i can''t figure it out, and i am only basing this on the people i know/have known... there is this air of "yuck, don''t bog me down with something technical, it interferes with my creating" it seems. you said yourself, if you chose to ; i''d be willing to bet that you never would choose to, as that would be against your "good writer principles"... NOTE: please don''t take this as a personal attack, i am saying "you" and "your" because i am writing to you, but i really mean writers in general; i know this might not even apply to you, but i have to address it to someone .

quote: I and many other people have done the same learning how to write, which happens to take a certain amount of raw talent as well as experience and knowledge (as does any artistic endeavour).

i agree. but that doesn''t give you the right to make demands of people who can actually make a game out of scratch, writer on staff or not.

quote: I want to make the stories in those games that need them better, and push the genre further and further every time. I''m not quite sure why there is so much opposition to this, but I can guess the fact that the most vocal detractors are programmers is telling.

this is a good and noble cause. rock on.
but what you see as opposition is really just people telling you their view of the situation. i might rant and rave and all that, but you can still pursue your dreams. hell, if you pull it off then more power to you. this "opposition" isn''t trying to keep you from writing a good story for a good game, but rather to point out that just because someone can write (even very well) doesn''t necessarily make them an indespensible member of a game development team. how many people put posts here that say, "hey, i have a great idea for a game, and i even have the whole story mapped out and the script written... does anyone want to make this game for me?" to make an analogy:
"great idea/script/story" is to "complete game" as "planning road trip" is to "operating a motor vehicle"... no amount of detailed scheduling and excellent sightseeing plans will make someone able to shift using a clutch.

quote: Now where are my asbestos pants?

i hope that wasn''t too hard on your pants. i''m really not trying to be a dick, this is just how i debate.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

quote: Original post by Tacit
And the technical end often plays primadonne and decides they''re too good to have to learn basic storytelling techniques, which is why the majority of games that could benefit from having well-written scripts, characters, settings, and story outlines, don''t.

So let''s generalize: don''t work with primadonnas, OK? You''re right though, there are likely just as many dumbass techies who''ll politely pretend to listen to an artist, and then do whatever they feel like anyway. Life''s too short to tolerate people like that.

The problem is the power they wield over their superiors who are too chicken$h!+ to fire them and provide one of life''s most important lessons. Sadly, it''s still a lot easier to ship a game without a plot than a plot without a game. Therefore, this imbalance isn''t going to change soon, so stay out of it.

quote: "Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Yeah yeah, story of my life etc. But far more often, the opposition is self-generated. And realizing that requires the ability to see yourself as others see you.

quote: I would bet that, being a solid (even good) writer of a variety of styles and for a variety of media, if I chose to, in five years I could become a much better coder than most of you good coders could become writers. I know that many of you are excellent at what you do and have dedicated your education and years of your time to learning how to code. Well, I and many other people have done the same learning how to write, which happens to take a certain amount of raw talent as well as experience and knowledge (as does any artistic endeavour).

[idle boast]Good luck, I''ve got 30 years and 3 commercial titles behind me in the programming department[/idle boast]. And by the same token, I''m already better than a fanboy at writing fiction (honestly, I was born better than that, what the $!@# is going on in their heads anyway?), but I don''t expect to be catching up to Hemmingway or Joyce in my lifetime.

quote: Personally, I don''t want to make games that are stories. I want to make the stories in those games that need them better, and push the genre further and further every time. I''m not quite sure why there is so much opposition to this, but I can guess the fact that the most vocal detractors are programmers is telling.

I''m with you 100% there. Our differences lie in our experiences. I''ve encountered far more stubborn artists than stubborn techies, but perhaps that''s because I''m really picky about my work partners, all of whom are outstanding artists in their own fields outside of programming. In fact, it seems to have been left to me to become the writer in the pack. It''s pretty scary work in progress actually.

quote: Now where are my asbestos pants?

And more importantly, where''s your alumnium foil cap!?!?!?!?

quote: Original post by krez
neato game engine without a good story == an ok game

This depends totally on what you want, or who you are, so your above statement applies only to your own tastes.

My flatmate can happily sit for hours in front of single-player Counterstrike trying to beat each level over and over while losing the least health. I can no longer sit down to a title unless it has real non-cardboard-cutout characters and a plot. That''s just me. The only exception is the odd puzzle game like Tetris.

Why don''t I go off and read a book? Because I still like all the other stuff, I like the combination of "working to be part of the story".

quote: Original post by varelse
My initial take is that you create personalities as opposed to characters. Next, you write and record a lot of canned dialog: probably an hour or more per major personality in order to capture its idiom. Then you drop them into the plot, giving them dramatic objectives to achieve. If they don''t manage to achieve it, then someone else subsumes their role just like when some PITA actor in a soap opera develops a habit for nose-candy and it''s off to Betty Ford with him/her. Once they achieve their objective, they can hang around, or you can kill them off, send them to the frontier, or whatever.

Has this been done before, or are you breaking new ground with this concept? This strikes me as a MMORPG where everyone else is computer-generated.

quote: Original post by krez
either way, writers aren''t expected to learn how to do "everything"; in theory, they only must learn the technilogical limitations of current computers, and perhaps any limitations imposed by the game engine / previous design.

I meant writers have to learn everything about all the different elements and genres of writing.

You guys rock. I mean, you''re willing to consider something other than the status quo and that''s amazing. It makes coming here worth while.

I know what you all mean about the fanboys who come here "i would like to write story plez I have good ideas for next Quake", and believe me it''s just as annoying looking from the ''artistic'' side as I''m sure it is from the technical. You''re always going to get that in any profession, except it''s a little bit more rampant in game development because, well, most gamers start out young. It''s a lot like young athletes who dream of the big leagues and playing pro -- how many dream and how many make it? Still, the best thing to do (in my opinion) is pat them on the head and point them at some resources so they can learn how the odds are stacked against them. That''s all. Experience and reality will weed out the week, just as it always does.

It is possible to ship a game without it ever having been touched by a writer. We see many, and some of them are even good. Some are actually great!! A lot of games that have stories really shouldn''t have. As a writer, I''m very familiar with the idea that people will notice bad writing much more than they will good...and people are noticing a lot of bad writing I''m telling you.

The comparison I made to learning to code and learning to write was to make a point, not to speak ill anyone''s skills or experience. And you''re right, I am a quick learner and fortunate to be able to understand and appreciate some very technical material (I worked for a while as a technical writer, doing specs for high-end graphics chips, and for 3D animation software). I''m also fortunate to have a lot of respect for people with technical knowledge, particularly programmers, for it is a skill that does not come easily to me. So, I guess I''ve been lucky in that sense...and I can''t say the same open-mindedness has always been offered to me. I certainly don''t think that it''s ''beneath'' me to learn to code. In fact, I''d say most of the writers I know wish they knew more about technical things. I also know many hardcore programmers who wish they had studied writing and the liberal arts in university. The world is filled with amazing contradictions and paradox. I''ve been learning C++ and I have some great programmer friends who are helping me out. In turn, I teach them what I can of writing and try to help them explore some of their latent creative abilities. Not that I''m so great guru or anything...but I value the open-minded and they are eager to learn. Nobody complains when they can have a well-written text attributed to them, even if they weren''t the ones who wrote it.

I believe it''s possible to change the nature of some games, to improve them and find ways to make them more fun for hardcore and casual gamers alike. I also believe that this will only be made possible through a respectful cooperation between technically oriented and artistically oriented people. In that spirit, despite our differences of opinion and backgrounds, I would be lucky to work with many of you.

I will continue to explore these issues and hopefully we can continue to understand one another more and more, so that one day maybe rather than dismiss a coder''s or writer''s thoughts we''ll be able to appreciate what they can offer to the greater good of all.

R.

quote: Original post by golan trevize x
me: neato game engine without a good story == an ok game
you: This depends totally on what you want, or who you are, so your above statement applies only to your own tastes.

perhaps... but i was basing this on the fact that people buy many many games (they go for $50 a pop? must be "ok" then, huh?)... whereas the "neato story without a game engine" part of that comment (which you conveniently left out of your quote) still holds true. a story without the game engine does not sell, because it was never made into a game! maybe i should have said "a game" instead of "an ok game", but i figured a neato engine would cover that.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
I meant writers have to learn everything about all the different elements and genres of writing.

well, they don't have to ... nor do programmers have to learn every aspect of programming (i doubt if either is really possible for a single human anyway).
but sorry about misunderstanding your point, you ought to be more clear.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Edited by - krez on February 2, 2002 10:50:01 PM

Just as a general response, I agree and disagree I agree that writing is underappreciated, but the problem is "why games are made".

The CEO of disney is quoted having said that they have no obligation to create art, their only obligation is to make money.

People barely buy a game because of its story. People buy a game because of its stunning graphics or cutting edge programming.

Look at other media, for example... Space Jam, remember that movie? Time Warner made mega bucks off of that movie. It was AWFUL... but it had Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny. Another words, they put something in there simply to make it sell, and could care less if anyone actually liked the movie.

Another example... Dreamworks released Prince of Egypt right around the same time as the rugrats movie... Prince of Egypt was by FAR a MUCH better movie. The rugrats movie made 10x as much profit. Why? Dreamworks is independent and has no conglomerate background. Rugrats, made by nickleodean (can''t remember who owns nick, but that isn''t important) was able to be promoted heavily through all the conglomerates other media avenues (Nickelodean... MTV... etc).

The moral of this story is that businesses look to make money. They weigh what can make them money more than what can''t. Merchandising, High Key Elements, Advertising... those are important. Quality and art isn''t.

Let''s bring this back to gaming. Why value so high the game writer when a well written game doesn''t sell? A story that looks cool and has no plot still gets played and makes money. Take a game with a spectacular storyline that has horrible game play and art, and it won''t sell at all!

So, many companies put writing on the bottom rung. Storylines are filled in between their "money making concept" rather than the opposite.

HOWEVER! There is of course still hope. For one thing, have a good education behind you and a generalized knowledge of other things. Work with the "money makign concept". If you can think of a way to make Space Jam a good movie, then maybe Time Warner would hire you

Also, in case anyone is interested, Indiana University has a GREAT graduate program called MIME (Masters in Immersive Mediated Environments). To get into MIME all you need is an undergraduate degree and an impressive portfolio in either A. Art B. Music Composition or C. WRITING!! MIME teaches you how to take your creativity and apply it to a gaming or new media setting for maximum effect.

Hope that helps
- Tommy

Even though I am new to the game programming scene this argument seems to be close to the old which is more important the story in comic books or the art in comicbooks.

What you usually end up realising is that one automatically enhances the other.That a great story is good but if the drawing sucks you lose some of the hold you had on your audience and if the drawing was great but the story was awful what you end up with is half read book that doubles as nice looking paperweight.

I believe that the same applies here.Great games are a product of great programming and great writing and concepts.They merge together to make something far greater than either one could do alone.The FFseries is a great series not only because of the splendid artwork and the superb use of new gaming features, and easy interface but also because they had a great story to tell that transcended far beyond the programming that contained it.

Anyway that''s my opinion you can take it with a grain of salt if you wish

The road to hell is paved in good intentions