[rant][rave][bitch][moan]

quote: Original post by varelse
Consider this situation a race: enough programmers will eventually become artistic to fill the role of writer (plenty of evidence of this exists in the SF author community already). And if this happens before the writers become sufficiently technical, no one will need them.

this is called "evolution"...
i agree that most games have crappy storylines, because they had a non-writer part-timing it instead of getting a "real" (read: can''t do anything else) writer... but i am sick of the whining already!
if a business applications programmer wants to get into game development, he learns whatever he needs to learn, and changes his coding to fit the situation (for example, he learns DirectX and starts optimizing for speed rather than keeping perfect data integrity). why do "writers" complain endlessly rather than adapting to a different medium? i wouldn''t expect a game development team to give up 3D graphics and a plot just because i am very good with database programming; they would laugh if i even mentioned it. yet all these self-proclaimed "game-writers" or "game-designers" (who haven''t ever gotten beyond the "writing a background story and having a basic idea of gameplay) think they can ignore real physical limitations (such as computer speed/memory, time left to finish programming, et cetera) just because they can write very original stories.
as many people have said before, great ideas are a dime a dozen, but it takes a LOT of work to implement them. i am of the opinion that taking those great ideas and "writing" them "into" a game (that is, developing the ideas enough to make a good game story, as opposed to writing it as a novel) isn''t all that difficult. the point is that everyone and anyone can write (not necessarily well, of course); not everyone can program, use a 3D program to make models, or whatever. so, a programmer can program and write. an artist/modeller can draw, make models, and write. the guy who makes the website can make the website and write. but the "writer" can only write; and for some reason they find it degrading to learn about the real physical issues involved in makeing a game.
[/moan][/bitch][/rave][/rant]

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Boy Krez...let''s generalize a little more why don''t we??

Yours and Varelse''s quoted statement about coders evolving into writers is just about the most ridiculous drivel I''ve ever read.

Keep it up and there''ll be a need for game writers sooner rather than later.

R.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Boy Krez...let''s generalize a little more why don''t we??

it''s one of my favorite things to do... but throwing the word "generalize" into the mix doesn''t necessarily invalidate what i said...

quote: Yours and Varelse''s quoted statement about coders evolving into writers is just about the most ridiculous drivel I''ve ever read.

it is almost as ridiculous as the type of drivel that comes from people who can not support their side of a debate, and rather just trash what other people say.

quote: Keep it up and there''ll be a need for game writers sooner rather than later.

hmm... well, i can''t really comment, as that makes no sense at all. how would my "keeping it up" have any effect on reality at all (namely, making "game-writers" suddenly useful)? i''ll just pretend you didn''t say that for now...

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

I apologize if that last post came out a bit harsh. I absolutely agree that there is a lot of theoretical stuff here and not enough meat to back it up. I''m working on it but it takes time! When I can, I''ll present something that clarifies some of the ideas I''ve been spewing on about in the forums and I''ll hopefully be able to provide some code as well, or at least a more technical analysis of a possible methodology.

R.

Games don''t tell stories. They simulate them. The only "writing" that is usually required is a simple sketch of the premise around which the game will be built. That''s it. Setting the scene and all those things that writers are used to doing - that''s the level designer''s job.

quote: Original post by TerranFury
Games don't tell stories. They simulate them. The only "writing" that is usually required is a simple sketch of the premise around which the game will be built. That's it. Setting the scene and all those things that writers are used to doing - that's the level designer's job.

That's a mostly accurate statement of most current games. But who needs a writer to create a "simple sketch of the premise?" Any reasonably imaginative soul who has read a few books or even watched a bunch of movies can do that: no need to understand character, dialog, plot, or any other component of a story.

And I gather that's why we're here. We want to figure out if a writer can really make a difference, and develop the technology to allow one to do so. That requires give and take on both sides. Where I get antsy and stubborn (and downright obnoxious) is when the artistic end plays primadonna and decides it's "too good", "too important", and/or "too talented" to learn something new.

Entitlement is for losers.





Edited by - varelse on January 31, 2002 3:53:14 PM

TerranFury - if you''re includung rpgs and adventure games in your definition of game, then that just isn''t true. Even some strategy or fps campaign games have more writing than that.

"Mommy, where do writers come from?" My personal theory is that if a person hasn''t read a ton of books and started composing fiction before they graduate high school, they are just not ever going to be a (non-hack) writer. Writing is hard! It''s just as hard as coding and almost as hard as doing animation! And somehow, one writer is expected to learn how to do everything, while teams of coders and animators get to split up their problems and give each other advice and editing. Some of the best writing I''ve ever seen has been done by 2-person teams, and I think we as writers could get farther ahead by getting over our ''I''m not a real writer unless I can do it all myself'' complex.

For another thing, being capable of writing a good short story is not the same as being able to write a good script is not the same as being able to write a good novel; many writers will only ever master one format of writing, if they have the persistance to master any. I am 21, I have been writing fiction for 9 years now, and I know I''m _almost_ good enough to write a novel, (IF I was willing to write one of a few limited types of novels) but I''m still not quite there yet. I try to write for my computer game and I keep running into the problem that I haven''t seen enough good movies, plays, computer games, and especially anime to be able to write the script-format parts of my story. Maybe in about 3 years when I''ve either learned this stuff or given up on it I''ll worry about interactive fiction and other big dreams. It''s easier to have big dreams when you haven''t yet agonized over how difficult even a medium-sized dream is to make real.

quote: Original post by sunandshadow
And somehow, one writer is expected to learn how to do everything, while teams of coders and animators get to split up their problems and give each other advice and editing.

coders and animators split up their problems because of time constraints (as well as the fact that different people might have different [better] ideas of how to fix said problems). they are generally trying to create something that has been previously defined (hopefully with a design doc or whatever) in the best way possible. if a writer wants other people''s input if they get stuck on a good way to move the story from point A to point B i suppose they can ask around; it isn''t a rule that writers must work alone. i always thought it was more one of those "i don''t want someone else interfering with my work" things.
either way, writers aren''t expected to learn how to do "everything"; in theory, they only must learn the technilogical limitations of current computers, and perhaps any limitations imposed by the game engine / previous design.
and now back to reality (as opposed to theory):
the big complaint seems to be that there aren''t "game writer" jobs available; this is because a programmer who can design a bit is better than a straight-up writer who has no idea about game development other than "making up a story". unless i was making a game where the story was one of the most important parts (i.e. Phantasmagoria ), i''d rather have 2 other programmers helping me than one programmer and a writer. between the 3 of us we could work out a decent story, and get the game programming done faster... or we could take longer and get a better story that needs to be mutilated to fit into the game anyways.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

quote: Original post by TerranFury
Games don''t tell stories. They simulate them. The only "writing" that is usually required is a simple sketch of the premise around which the game will be built. That''s it. Setting the scene and all those things that writers are used to doing - that''s the level designer''s job.

And you come by this shot of brilliance how exactly?

quote: Original post by varelse

And I gather that''s why we''re here. We want to figure out if a writer can really make a difference, and develop the technology to allow one to do so. That requires give and take on both sides. Where I get antsy and stubbown (and downright obnoxious) is when the artistic end plays primadonna and decides it''s "too good", "too important", and/or "too talented" to learn something new.

Nobody is too talented or too important to learn something new. In fact, I''d even boldy wager that its on the people who are talented and are always learning new things that become important.

And the technical end often plays primadonne and decides they''re too good to have to learn basic storytelling techniques, which is why the majority of games that could benefit from having well-written scripts, characters, settings, and story outlines, don''t.

I thought the discussion had moved past this, but I guess I''ll steal this quote from Einstein to hopefully make a point:

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

I would bet that, being a solid (even good) writer of a variety of styles and for a variety of media, if I chose to, in five years I could become a much better coder than most of you good coders could become writers. I know that many of you are excellent at what you do and have dedicated your education and years of your time to learning how to code. Well, I and many other people have done the same learning how to write, which happens to take a certain amount of raw talent as well as experience and knowledge (as does any artistic endeavour).

Personally, I don''t want to make games that are stories. I want to make the stories in those games that need them better, and push the genre further and further every time. I''m not quite sure why there is so much opposition to this, but I can guess the fact that the most vocal detractors are programmers is telling.

Now where are my asbestos pants?

R.