Yay for MadKeithV!

hi Landfish !

and you all old lurkers

-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-

quote: Original post by Tacit
Yay for MadKeithV!

I''ll second that one! Would it perhaps be a good idea to add a section here for general creative rants?

No, there are not many stereotypes in that posting what so ever.

quote:
Programmers think we''re useless

I am present leading a startup with one other person, we have 12 developers (in general, so in any position). $5 if you can guess what my job is, and what my partners job is. Well I will give you a hint. I am a developer (programmer) and he is a writer, and yup... that is all he does... he writes. Well I will admit to the exception that he organises events and tasks with the artists and other writer, and I manage these tasks amoungst the composer and other programmers.

Now to say the he is useless would be shooting myself in the foot. He knows it and I know it. If it were not for his ability to write I could code... sure... but it does not mean that it would be half decent.

You know, there is a saying, you do not know what you have until it is gone.. people all to often take their abilities for granted, and it really looks as if you are doing that here. if you are not happy with the recognition you are getting, or can not handle or for that matter, even see what recognition your position gets you, then move out because all you will do is fail. Depressing isn''t it?

The development process had every respect and need for good writing, our writer is constantly changing details, adding others, not only because the development process has called for a change, but because our developers like to discuss ideas with the writer... this is what truely makes a game unique with content rich story.

All in all, i think you need to start appreciating writing a little bit more and give yourself a little more recognition. Watch you stereotypes, and actually do something instead of complaining about not being able to do it. If you do not push your limits, how will you know where they lay?



Gamedev''s AI Auto-Reply bot.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Kylotan said:

"Writers who struggle to make games more like stories will fail.
Writers who adapt their art to suit games better will succeed."

This is partly true, but I disagree with the tone. It smacks of the whole ''writers have no place here'' attitude that is so counter-productive.

Create a synthesis of these two sentences and you''ll get what I consider to be the truth:

"Writers who adapt their art to suit games better, will be able to help games become a more compelling medium for storytelling".

The disclaimer being that this only applies to those specific games that benefit from having stories.

Any side of this writer/coder duality that thinks they can advanced the art without the other side is dreaming. So get over it and let''s try to figure out how we can work together to make games better!

Sorry to quote so much of your post, but it''s all relevant.

I apologize for the tone you seemed to see in my words, as it was not intended. My issue is with the "games should be all about the story" writers who are just as bad as the "games should be all about the graphics" programmers. These are people who don''t really respect games as a separate concept. Don''t write a book and expect it to be a good game, that''s all. Writing a book and writing for a game are two different disciplines.

I also don''t like the "writer/coder duality" you mention. It''s sad that so many designers and writers complain about the games industry, and make it seem like some sort of programmer conspiracy to keep them out. The problem is that a lot of writers don''t think in terms of the game they are creating - they just think in terms of how their story is better than the story from a given game that they''ve played. Same for the wannabe designers who are quick to criticise the industry for making such bad games, but who don''t have anything but a few flippant and ill thought out ideas for improvement.

All I am saying, is that "game writing" doesn''t equal "book writing". Some of the skills are shared, and some are not. I''d like to see more innovation in the "game writing" field on these forums.

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quote: All I am saying, is that "game writing" doesn''t equal "book writing". Some of the skills are shared, and some are not. I''d like to see more innovation in the "game writing" field on these forums.

Flame on

Indeed, there''s a screaming need for technological literacy on the part of designers and writers (and all other artists). If they don''t really understand the medium they''re targeting, programmers are right to consider them useless, and jettison them from the process. Technologically illiterate individuals have no business in the technology industry, and games are both a technology and a business.

Flame off

OTOH you don''t have to be John Carmack to understand the medium. And if you just take the time to get a general grasp of the possible, programmers will love you for taking them to places they''d otherwise miss. Sadly, I know far more techies that are artistic than artists that are technical. Consider this situation a race: enough programmers will eventually become artistic to fill the role of writer (plenty of evidence of this exists in the SF author community already). And if this happens before the writers become sufficiently technical, no one will need them.

For now, the programmer/writer dichotomy is, unfortunately, a valid heuristic. But it''s interesting that one of the best writers I know is also one of the best graphics programmers I know, and that he dropped the latter profession recently to solely pursue the former after selling a few stories. Of course, nobody here knows him, so we might as well stick to the stereotype, right? Open loop, insert infinity, alas...

Kylotan: No apology necessary. I wasn't trying to pick on you, just use your words to support my opinion.

Varelse: I agree with you.

Before I knew what I now know about games, I often thought the same thing that many writers think about games -- that the stories were all cliche, the dialogue was stilted and boring, the character development so superficial and 'cookie cutter'. I still think a lot of those things, but I've gained a much greated understanding (and respect) for the difficulty inherent in using games to tell a story. There are some incredibly smart people in these forums that have a lot of great ideas for how technology can be used to tell better stories in games, and how storytelling techniques can be used to create more interesting games with a broader appeal. I think this is amazing, and a very promising sign for the future. Since the gamers of today are likely the game developers of tomorrow, recognizing and coming to terms with this growing interest in using games to tell stories (not all games!) means that somewhere down the line one of us or some of us will find a way or ways to make this happen. We'll shatter the old paradigms and open a whole new world of opportunities. So, we rock!

I've been a technology and marketing writer in the high tech industry for a few years now. My background is in English lit. and creative writing. Finding a job in the high tech industry was great for me because I love technology as much as I love writing, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to embrace the duality that exists between scientific and literary minds (notice I don't put 'scientific' and 'creative' as opposites...I don't believe they are). My father and brother are both scientists, so you can imagine the discussions we get into. They are both extremely well read outside of their fields, as I try to be outside of mine. It's all about balance and remaining curious and open-minded to other disciplines and concepts.

So, perhaps I'm lucky because it doesn't seem like such a tremendously impossible leap to me, to go from being a storyteller with conventional methods to being a storyteller in games (I don't just mean for myself, but for anyone with the skills and dedication). I recognize that we need to develop a whole new methodology and vocabulary to talk about these things, and that we have a lot of work to do in bridging the gap between 'writers' and 'coders'. Because I think many of us agree that we can't manage one without the other.

I'm fortunate enough to be friends with a great (but not prolific) cyberpunk author. We've spent a lot of time discussing the possibilities for storytelling in games and he has a lot of amazingly interesting things to say about writing for many different media. When we get into our debates or discussions, it becomes all too clear to me that the conceptual territory between writing novels and writing games is not impossible to navigate. Sure, it will be (has been) painful, but tell me anything that isn't painful that's also worth working towards. A lot of research has been done at places like MIT and others regarding some of these issues (communication in cyberspace, hypertext storytelling, etc.). I'm not saying these are the answers but they are the kernels of answers yet to be discovered.

I think that sometimes our problem is that we're too attached to old definitions and paradigms. We grip the past so tightly, that we fail to recognize that we can accomplish so much more working in tandem than fighting one another for 'control' or domination. Games are as much about storytelling as anything else meaningful in society is about storytelling. What else is there if not the perpetual search for meaning that manifests itself in a brilliant piece of literature or piece of code?

R.

Edited by - Tacit on January 30, 2002 3:38:43 PM

It''s funny, but I really don''t think the initial responses had any clue what I was talking about.

All I''m saying is that there ARE people out there who claim to be game writers, and they SHOULD be pushing the envelope; And precious few of them are. More than anything I agree with Kylotan: This is it''s own animal, and we need to start treating it that way.

I''m not pining for recognition myself, I''m not even a game writer. I''m not a designer. I''m just an enthusiast.

Launching into a debate about whining for recognition is pointless. Yes, I am whining. I honestly believe there is something to whine about. I''ve played 3 video games in my life that held up to my standards, each of them was orgasmic to me, and I would like to see more. I''m sure other people might agree with that.

This was quite obviously unproductive, and I''m sorry if it came off as egotistical. I don''t think I''m god''s gift to gaming, all I have is a failed development team and a lot of enemies.

I don''t know if it''s pointless to highlight that many people (not necessarily you, Landfish) whine about stuff when they should be putting their energies towards changing the status quo. That''s all I meant to say. I don''t think it''s unproductive at all. I thought it was an interesting discussion but maybe I just like reading my own posts.

R.

quote: Original post by Landfish
I''ve played 3 video games in my life that held up to my standards, each of them was orgasmic to me, and I would like to see more. I''m sure other people might agree with that.

Which were they, incidentally? (Feel free to post this in a new thread if you feel that talking about them will help people understand what you are getting at.)



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