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What makes a human different from monkeys/other animals

Started by May 14, 2020 07:20 PM
178 comments, last by Tom Sloper 4 years, 3 months ago

NikiTo said:
unload myself to a computer, i would choose the computer

You will have the pay the server ( that will host you).

How are you going to communicate with your real life (analog?) friends and relatives , messenger?

My project`s facebook page is “DreamLand Page”

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but this is the truth:

In animal world (packs, hives etc.), if an individual tries to trick the others, the others kicks him out, or even kills him to avoid further harm to the population. In human society, if someone shamelessly lies and has absolutely no respect for the others, we make him a leader, a politician. I left to you to draw the conclusions and the impact on the chance of survival on the long-run.

Cheers,
bzt

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Calin said:
You will have the pay the server ( that will host you). How are you going to communicate with your real life (analog?) friends and relatives , messenger?

Any work people do now online, will be possible to be done from inside the computer in order to make “real money” and pay with that “real money” for the hosting.
Although i wouldn't recommend for a beginner to unload himself into a computer. Only a very good programmer should attempt that(if some bitter user doesn't understand that, please ask before anger on me).

Personally i would not even feel curious to peek into the boring real world anymore. But if somebody wants to do it -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhWp6O27dMQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIWMSrLGlTk

bzt said:
if an individual tries to trick the others, the others kicks him out, or even kills him to avoid further harm to the population.

Could you please add links/quotes? I have heard of animals killing the sick ones. Never heard about killing the “liar” and “deceiver”.

What is more, the deceivers in nature survive -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aposematism#Mimicry

bzt said:
trick the others

Animals don`t trick, as Nikito already pointed to trick means to deceive. They deceive sometimes but it`s instinct. It`s not a strategy developed `on the go`. Like some times animals play as bate to make predators depart from the pups. But that`s instinct they can`t adjust this strategy to other types of behaviour.

As for us telling lies, it`s a process by which we defy reality ( we craft a plausible alternative to a concrete state of facts). That`s what makes us able to bend reality to our own will.

My project`s facebook page is “DreamLand Page”

Calin said:
But that`s instinct they can`t adjust this strategy to other type of behaviour.

If the animal lied intentionally, it would mean animals have great intelligence. To intentionally invent a trick/hack/deception/strategy, it would require a complex logic.

Crows trick larvas. Crow tricks the larva to bite the bait and then pull it out. Crow triggers the larva to defend itself by biting the stick and then the crow pulls. It is a deception. It is too complex to be instinct, but is it a solid proof of general intelligence? Definitively crows are in the top few of animal intelligence.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/adult-new-caledonian-crow-dexterously-extracting-a-longhorn-larva-clamped-onto-the-end_fig2_315687655

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Calin said:
They deceive sometimes but it`s instinct. It`s not a strategy developed `on the go`.

ah… no. My dog certainly does all the things it knows it is not allowed to behind my back. Deliberately and all the time. It's a very insidious dog.
Obviously to me, the dog has all the kind of motivation, emotions, planning, problem solving skills that i have. I feel a bit smarter, though. But the difference is gradually, not a yes or no.

I also see social behavior between the two of my dogs all the time. The other smaller dog rants if the big one goes to do something it is not allowed to, for example.
This is pretty complex behavior: 1. Small dog knows what's allowed by me. 2. It knows the big dog is going to break my rules. 3. It feels responsible because it feels as the leader. 4. It expects reward from my side.

It becomes more complex, if the little dog also does forbidden things like eating cow shit. It only pretends to do it, than it looks at me and waits for my order to stop. Then it takes the shit and runs away, looks back again with a grin and repeats the actions.
The little dog does this to have fun, it is kidding with me. It also makes a difference between minor and major dog crimes.

There are many more behaviors that seem very human to me. Seeking for attention, greed, being selfish, being a friend and partner, whatever else.

So, really i don't see the fundamental difference between animals and humans.
Like others said, i believe a major role of our higher intelligence was communication, because language allows to formulate - and so to process - more complex problems. As a result we also have increased awareness, e.g. about the image in the mirror.
But looking at it from a distance, we are both smarter and dumber as a result. Things cancel each other out, and in the end we are not really smarter than animals it seems. You can even proof the point we would be dumber, especially at current day :/

So, what's the difference from:

“I have to wait until man goes out of the kitchen before i can jump on the table and grab the food!”

and

“x + 3 = 5; I have to subtract 3 from 5 to get x!”

The difference in required skill is very small. Our achievement was to get to the point so we can ask questions as the latter. An animal has no interest to ask for equations.

What brought us there is the abstraction enabled by language. It allows to subdivide problems, relate them, so we can address a larger context. But the relations itself remain simple and solvable. Only their numbers grow, so we use pen and paper or computers as tools to assist, to keep track of the many things we can not keep in mind.
But the skills, the motivations, the problem detection and solution mechanism is equal for humans and animals.

Now how does this help us to make Terminators and Robocops?

I realize it's a lot about emotions, but emotions are just an interface, cause by constraints of nature.
We must eat and breathe, we want to reproduce… so we have problems, and it's motivation to survive that gives us ability to detect problems.

It seams the major lack of current AI is to detect problems.
Solving them seems the easier problem maybe. AI is doing only what we tell it to do from the outside, and in the end only we judge and use the outcome, not the AI for itself.

In that sense our AI in games is maybe further advanced than ML. :D

JoeJ said:
x + 3 = 5; I have to subtract 3 from 5 to get x!”

There is no math going on inside your dog`s brain it`s probably just a check of a condition every once in a while

if(!OwnerInSight) { / grab food /}

My project`s facebook page is “DreamLand Page”

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