lemme chime in here as the swiss guy...

given the UK will soon be in a similar situation as switzerland when it comes to the EU (with more "weight" so to say because of the bigger size of the country, but a worse starting position because you got out of the EU while switzerland never was in)...

Most probably the UK will have to follow the same route of endless discussions and contracts with the EU to regulate trade and immigration. Prepare for some Looooong negotiations. And a lot of posing and delaying by the EU, just to make sure you feel treated like a second rate country.

As to immigration rules... either you join the schengen act again, which would of course make the reason a lot of UK citizen voted out void, or you will be treated like gambia, or china. Or switzerland, before we joined the schengen area, for that matter.

Unless the wake up call makes sure the EU rethinks how they interact with european countries not in the EU, trying to negotiate trade and immigration rules. Switzerland might profit that way a lot from the ruckus caused by the UK. Maybe in the future, when a country like switzerland wants "special treatment" from the EU, its no longer a "my way or the highway" stance from the EU...

What I would be worried about is the unity of the UK. Given staying in the EU was the main reasons the scotts are still in the UK, I would guess they would be organizing a new vote on that... and they need to do so fast, because that way they could stay in the EU while the rest of the UK (or maybe just england by that time) leaves it, while waiting too long means they need to rejoin (takes longer, and IDK if scotland (or NI for that matter) really reaches the financial minimums set by the EU for a joining country once the dust settles on the mess UK politicians got their country into).

it is all well and good if countries want to control their borders (on the basis of sound reasons) and still access the single market but the problem is that if 1 country gets this deal that then all the countries will want the same deal.

At that point the issues becomes a lot more basic :

How do we deal with illegal immigration that will occur because each country now requires visas?

Will we see a return to sporadic cash in hand work? For example: a German restaurant along the board in the Netherlands hires a German waiter for cash - no taxes.

How do small villages along the borders fare? They would loose 50% of their customers in their radial vicinity.

Will tourism take a hit?

How do you handle countries with a low minimum wage? That would give the country an unfair advantage, its citizens can no longer leave for country X to find better work. If the labour supply cannot move (easily) then the factories will move to the labour supply.

The EU solves these problems, its not perfect but a Europe without free movement is a PITA.

If there is a better model i would like to hear it.

Also, if we ever want a world where companies can't hide their cash in tax havens then we the big trading blocs so the big deals can be made.

Hey, I am really not against the EU. I really like the idea of all the countries in europe working closer together. I really like some of perks it brings, as well as some of the responsibilities.

I do see that you have to treat everyone equaly, and that this also includes non-members (gonna be interesting how that plays out for the UK... given the EU doesn't want to haemorraghe more members, they might opt to take a rigid stance against the UK, but loosen some responsibilities for their members as well as re-negotiate some things... good for the remaining EU mambers, bad for the UK).

What I don't like so much is the arrogance that some EU officials often show when talking with non-members and members alike. Just because they are talking to single member, a local politician, or a small non-member country like switzerland doesn't mean they cannot talk to them as equals, even if they are not. Currently they often have treat such cases as a king, giving audiences to commoners would. It's bad form.

But that is just a small gripe compared to all the problems still remaining in the current form of the EU, which played into why the UK got out, and why switzerland most probably newer will get in:

1) free travel: free travel is nice and dandy if every member is about equal when it comes to wages, and cost of living. It might still offend the nationalists that company A employs to many foreigners, but at that point there is little ground to suspect foul play by company A (as the foreigneirs come from a country with similar wages, they most probably didn't accept a lower wage).

When the wages are so dissimilar like in europe at the moment, nobody wins. Eastern european countries are expieriencing a serious braindrain as well educated people will migrate west to work for a better wage. While good for SOME people (the ones finding employment for a bigger wage), their countries are suffering.

While the richer countries have to fight with higher unemployment rates because of the increased amount of people looking for jobs in their country, and social unrest caused by foreigners snatching up jobs. You could say that the economy and the shareholder wins... but the country as a whole again looses.

2) foreign law and politics being imposed upon countries: its good that the EU tries to harmonize the laws and some of the political decision between their members. This is one of the core pillars upon which the EU is founded, and one of the main benefits.

But EU officials need to be more careful with their "dictatorship"... they need to understand that what they are doing is not seen as a good thing by a lot of people in their member countries, and should really think twice if something is important enough to harmonize it and force it upon all members, or if they should leave it to their members to decide.

Its something switzerland has a lot of expierience with, it often leads to very, very bad decisions and developments (like some of our cantons collecting way lower taxes than others, leading to them becoming slums for rich people on one side, but unable to pay for the public schools on the other)... but it kept switzerland, which is still a federation of partially independent cantons, together trough a lot of turmoil and even though the different parts of switzerland have VASTLY different opinions.

3) a missing common army or at least army command: No, you cannot lean on the NATO all the time. And no, the UNO also is no replacement. I am of the opinion that the current fugitive crisis would be less severe if the EU would have swiftly acted in syria. With a united force, and every member chiming in what they could spare.

The actual crisis in syria might not have been resolved, maybe wouldn't look much different (the US might have had to invest less of their own forces).

The difference would be how the EU could have acted with the fugitives themselves. Instead of Merkel trying to guilt-talk everyone into accepting more and more fugitives on their soil, they could have set up a more strict quota, and then came up with a midterm plan for the rest, while waving the fact they were acting in syria as a clear statement they WERE doing something to resolve the conflict midterm.

Doesn't really help the fugitives in need, and might sound cold hearted. But the fugitives are also not helped if the EU breaks apart, every country looks for themselves and germany gets overrun until even Merkel has to close the borders.

Just because my country is a part of europe doesn't mean I care about a country on the other end of the europe... I should, but that is not how the average human works.

Just because some people profit a lot from free travel doesn't make the complaints by all the people that are not profitting from it less viable.

Just because the politicians in Brussel have more important things to talk about than the situation of a single member or non-member, doesn't mean its a good idea to treat everyone the same.

Not all countries in europe are the same. They come in all different shapes and sizes, some rich, some less so, some able to support themselves, some just freeloading, some even incompetent to a degree that borders on self-destructiveness.

It might be time the EU starts aknowledging that it is a federation of different countries united by common goals, not the new roman empire with the countries politicians as mere governours of the emperor in Brussel.

Pretty much this. Here in the US there's a lot of people who are like "we can't just have wide open borders to every guy who wants to come in to the US" (most of those people are Trump supporters btw) and that would be an issue if we did have wide open borders to every random Joe who wants to come in....except we don't. A lot of folks don't realize that it's process to stay in the US legally is a pretty long and complex one.

We're pretty much having the same problem here, which is that some people really want to blame immigrants for all the problems in the US.

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way.

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.

Again, pretty much this. The referendum in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have brought out all the closet racists. A lot of people feel it's a reaction to globalization and the changes made by globalization.

Some say immigration is wrong, some don't. Extreme minorities will always exists, slipping leaflets into your door. The majority, if you follow the process and legally enter the country and can contribute to the country with a learned skill, will generally tend to like you. It is those who do not that people take issue with.

A large number of immigrants are in fact NOT following the process to legally stay in the US. People who are not following the process are getting a free stay. The POTUS recently attempted to shield 5 million undocumented illegal aliens. There are currently close to 12 million illegal aliens in the US, most estimates say that number is actually higher. Their are 42 million total immigrants in the US, meaning %30 of immigrants are not following the rules.

The role of immigrants have changed from the original idea put forth of opportunity and the chance to make a bountiful life for yourself. Census reports(that's government statistics) show that even LEGAL immigrants take more advantage of the welfare system than native born Americans.

It does not make me a racist to think that the US vetting process is broken and that ANY country who takes in immigrants should only take those who can offer a skill to improve that country, not bring burden to it. All of these facts previously stated are drawn from government organizations, not some sort of anti-immigrant propaganda I am sure some of your will claim. Facts are not racist.

No one will argue that racism does not exist in some shape or form, of course, but the overtly racist are on the fringe of society. If you consider Pro-Leave for Brexit or supporting Donald Trump as making somebody overtly racist, you are ignorant.

Lets not forget to mention all of the social issues that come about from introducing a large variety of different cultures into a single, native born culture. That is a whole other discussion.

Pretty much this. Here in the US there's a lot of people who are like "we can't just have wide open borders to every guy who wants to come in to the US" (most of those people are Trump supporters btw) and that would be an issue if we did have wide open borders to every random Joe who wants to come in....except we don't. A lot of folks don't realize that it's process to stay in the US legally is a pretty long and complex one.

We're pretty much having the same problem here, which is that some people really want to blame immigrants for all the problems in the US.

This whole racists point of view on the argument just mystifies me. This is the same mentality a lot people are taking in the US as well, that if you have issues with immigrants, you are racist. I would argue that people don't give two thoughts to the color of your skin, people care about culture, values, ethics and any other number of defining moral characteristics. Very often, these things don't always align with the majority of the population. You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

Well done; you managed to completely misunderstand the misrepresent what I said... *slow clap*

I didn't make a single claim about immigration in the quoted text.
Nor, in the unquoted text, did I say that people who had problems with immigration are racists.

What I said was that the only people who are happy now are the racists.
You know, those people who have been putting leaflets through Polish people's doors telling them to go home.
Or, as reported on the news last night, the people who told a guy of Indian/Pakistani decent (based on skin tone and bone structure) that because we voted out he has to go home - the guy is Welsh. Was born in Wales. Has a Welsh accent.

Those people have been emboldened by the 'leave' vote as they now THINK that the majority is behind them; the fact they are racists means they are fucking morons anyway, so that belief makes sense from their twisted insane point of view.

So you are lying to yourself if you don't think people give two thoughts to the colour of your skin, because some people do. If they didn't they wouldn't be out there telling integrated 2nd and 3rd generation British people to 'go home' and 'get out because we voted out' and other less charming phrases because they aren't white.
(There are plenty of other stories about the place where people doing their job have been laughed at and told they have to go home now; or woke up the day of the result to find people shouting 'make Britain white' in connection to the leave vote. It doesn't take much to find evidence of people being racist idiots in connection with this vote.)

If you think otherwise then you are lying to yourself.
And we are talking 'Earth is the centre of the universe' level lying.

I would like to add that we only see overt racism from people who are "tough" and "hard" because they have the "balls" to behave this way.

Just as some people don't steal because its against the law, some people don't express their racist views because they don't want to be recognized as racist (and because it is also illegal). The referendum has brought racism out the closet but still the closet is only left ajar.

Again, pretty much this. The referendum in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have brought out all the closet racists. A lot of people feel it's a reaction to globalization and the changes made by globalization.

Some say immigration is wrong, some don't. Extreme minorities will always exists, slipping leaflets into your door. The majority, if you follow the process and legally enter the country and can contribute to the country with a learned skill, will generally tend to like you. It is those who do not that people take issue with.

A large number of immigrants are in fact NOT following the process to legally stay in the US. People who are not following the process are getting a free stay. The POTUS recently attempted to shield 5 million undocumented illegal aliens. There are currently close to 12 million illegal aliens in the US, most estimates say that number is actually higher. Their are 42 million total immigrants in the US, meaning %30 of immigrants are not following the rules.

The role of immigrants have changed from the original idea put forth of opportunity and the chance to make a bountiful life for yourself. Census reports(that's government statistics) show that even LEGAL immigrants take more advantage of the welfare system than native born Americans.

It does not make me a racist to think that the US vetting process is broken and that ANY country who takes in immigrants should only take those who can offer a skill to improve that country, not bring burden to it. All of these facts previously stated are drawn from government organizations, not some sort of anti-immigrant propaganda I am sure some of your will claim. Facts are not racist.

No one will argue that racism does not exist in some shape or form, of course, but the overtly racist are on the fringe of society. If you consider Pro-Leave for Brexit or supporting Donald Trump as making somebody overtly racist, you are ignorant.

Lets not forget to mention all of the social issues that come about from introducing a large variety of different cultures into a single, native born culture. That is a whole other discussion.

These are valid issues, clearly important and you've obviously done your research so I would not regard this as racist.

However (I'm not stating any facts here, just my impression, i'm probably way off) I was in Seattle recently and I've never seen so many homeless / drug addicts / veterans left to rot in my whole life (and the smell of weed on every corner), of course not all of America is like this but I think maybe there are other issues that are more important and if these were solved the immigrant problem could solve itself. In the same way I think if the NHS was ran by people who had a dang clue it wouldn't be such a mess either regardless of immigration.

Its certainly no good bringing in immigrants if the country is already a total mess but the total mess should be the priority.

However (I'm not stating any facts here, just my impression, i'm probably way off) I was in Seattle recently and I've never seen so many homeless / drug addicts / veterans left to rot in my whole life

Seattle in particular does have a problem with homelessness, to the extent that the mayor declared a state of emergency. If you were in the area in the mid-May to early-June timeframe, you may have also been seeing a higher-than-usual number of homeless folks around because of efforts to clean up the area known as the Jungle, which is where lots of homeless folks congregate and set up camp. Those clean-up efforts involved displacing those currently camping there, and I don't think that ended up meaning "put them in shelters," I think that ended up meaning "telling them to move out," and as such not all of them ended up in shelters. :(

No one will argue that racism does not exist in some shape or form, of course, but the overtly racist are on the fringe of society. If you consider Pro-Leave for Brexit or supporting Donald Trump as making somebody overtly racist, you are ignorant.

No one will argue that racism does not exist in some shape or form, of course, but the overtly racist are on the fringe of society. If you consider Pro-Leave for Brexit or supporting Donald Trump as making somebody overtly racist, you are ignorant.

And no one was saying that?

I made the point that, right now, apart form the racists who seem to think the country is behind them, no one is happy in either camp.

Which is not saying 'herp derp all leavers are racists' despite what you might want to dream up in your paranoid little brain.

And yet some how, we are here, with you making a point about something you brought up....

Its shit like this which makes me realise how fucking clever I am and how dumb everyone else is... Christ on a bike...

Your use of ellipse and shallow attacks sure does show how intelligent you are.

I didn't bring the point up, you did as well as many others in these posts. When you refer to a group of people as "racist", that is bringing it up. Besides, it was more in response to RivieraKid then you, although yes, you were included too because you did bring it up. A lot of people in this world immediately jump to screaming racist even if you don't.

Take your superior self somewhere else and quit polluting this forum.