Traitors welcome invaders.

Traitors welcome invaders.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi-Wan Kenobi

"Forgotten never forgets the forgetting (one)" I. Erkal

"And on the third day God created the Remington bolt-action rifle so that Man could fight the dinosaurs And the homosexuals" from Mean Girls

Ok, I admit that last two quotes are to empower first one

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi-Wan Kenobi

No relation whatsoever to this.

But anyhow, back on the topic. I have yet to here any solution come from the guys that believe that Islam is the true source of the problem that:

a): actually works and hasn't been tried before (or currently being tried)

b): isn't directly against Western values

c): is actually feasible to do

Christian terrorism? It's existed and it's had support only a century ago. They're known as the KKK and they were terrorists right up to the same point as any radical Muslim out there. Now people say that that's not the case anymore, and that I would argue that is because more level headed and smarter people prevailed, not because of some inherent Christianity superiority in values.

Now some say that Islam itself is contrary to Western values. They point to Middle Eastern countries as evidence of this. Sure making the US like a Middle Eastern nation isn't going to fly either, but we are reaching a point in the US where people's paranoia and phobia over terrorism has already lead to mass surveillance and a massive infringement of privacy rights. In the name of security, and because of our phobia of Islam, we're going in a direction that is already a sort of Orwellian nightmare and some people think that's still not enough. Islam not a religion of peace? Sure, but that'd be no more than any other religion. It's the people that make the religion.

ChaosEngine made an interesting point that was that we (the US and allies) have spent trillions of dollars trying to combat this threat. Now trillions of dollars spent, almost 15 years later, god knows how many lives lost with Bin Laden dead and ISIS on the ropes, was it really worth it? I'm not the kind of guy who screams "no more military, that's all wasted money!" but at the same time, is the amount of effort we are putting into "combatting" this "threat" really worth it? Again, I'm not saying "do nothing" but I would argue that the Afghan war and definitely the Iraq war achieved literally nothing.

Which brings me to yet another point: ISIS is not a result of Islam, as shocking to some that may be. ISIS is a direct result of a bunch of idiots deciding that lets invade Iraq for no particularly good reason. I don't have the sources off the top of my head, but the mismanagement of Iraq basically ended up leading to a lot of the former Iraqi army (Saddam's army that is) joining up with groups that ultimately became ISIS. It's really the result of another stupid foreign policy decision. So it's not Islam being inherently "evil" or "violent" but rather a bunch of fools deciding that they were going to meddle in a part of the world where coincidentally many people practiced Islam.

Which brings me to yet another point: ISIS is not a result of Islam, as shocking to some that may be. ISIS is a direct result of a bunch of idiots deciding that lets invade Iraq for no particularly good reason. I don't have the sources off the top of my head, but the mismanagement of Iraq basically ended up leading to a lot of the former Iraqi army (Saddam's army that is) joining up with groups that ultimately became ISIS. It's really the result of another stupid foreign policy decision. So it's not Islam being inherently "evil" or "violent" but rather a bunch of fools deciding that they were going to meddle in a part of the world where coincidentally many people practiced Islam.

When Iraq invaded, US used Kurds as allies (for things resulting in death of over 1 million Iraqi) and when they are "done" , replacement of overthrown Sunni Saddam with Shia elements led to an easy ground for any radical group to rise and find public support due to hatred towards groups involving. As Arab spring clearly showed, dictators in Arab countries were useful to keep things in one hand and in order (as also no Western country ever complained of dictators before) but without this iron fist, high expectations from people never practiced democracy or secularism (so never had to pay price to gain them) were destined to fail. Sect based separations were not an issue in Arab geography before Arab spring thing after all, there was a covert struggle between Iran vs Arab nations.

Traitors welcome invaders.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes" Obi-Wan Kenobi

"Forgotten never forgets the forgetting (one)" I. Erkal

"And on the third day God created the Remington bolt-action rifle so that Man could fight the dinosaurs And the homosexuals" from Mean Girls

Ok, I admit that last two quotes are to empower first one

Reality is that there are absolutes in the world - many of them. The Far Left commonly either ignores them are is oblivious to them.

Islam is absolutely a predatory civilization which has claimed 57 nations under oppression.

You have me sold. Let's ban ALL Muslims because we fear Islam. Then when our fears about that are calmed we can ban video games because the media claims they are linked to mass shootings. Might as well let fear rule everything and ban everything that scares people. Last thing we can ban is free speech as that seems to scare the hell out of people the pass few years now. Hell, screw it, let's just have marshal law and make it so no one can ever leave their homes again because of fear. Problem solved.

You have me sold. Let's ban ALL Muslims because we fear Islam. Then when our fears about that are calmed we can ban video games because the media claims they are linked to mass shootings. Might as well let fear rule everything and ban everything that scares people. Last thing we can ban is free speech as that seems to scare the hell out of people the pass few years now. Hell, screw it, let's just have marshal law and make it so no one can ever leave their homes again because of fear. Problem solved.

It's not because we fear Islam, it's because Wahhabi Sunni Islam causes problems when left unchecked.

But while banning them from entry is a good symbolic move, it's not enough to fix the problem.

But anyhow, back on the topic. I have yet to here any solution come from the guys that believe that Islam is the true source of the problem that:

a): actually works and hasn't been tried before (or currently being tried)

b): isn't directly against Western values

c): is actually feasible to do

a. Kill radical Wahhabi Sunni Muslim clerics, even if they're in our allied countries (Saudi Arabia is a BIG part of this), until they're replaced with moderates.

b. Can't fulfill this requirement I think. Arguably it wouldn't be against Western values to astroturf Shia military strength and cause sectarian violence to accomplish a), but that would cause a whole bunch of new problems.

c. See a). I'm sure if we told the Mossad they had free range to attack certain radical Wahhabi Sunni clerics they'd even solve the problem for us.

Christian terrorism? It's existed and it's had support only a century ago. They're known as the KKK and they were terrorists right up to the same point as any radical Muslim out there.

Last year Islamic terrorists killed more than 9 times the amount of black people the KKK killed over their entire 86 year real operating period.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/nov/27/allen-west/allen-west-more-black-black-murders-six-months-86-/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3322308/Number-people-killed-terrorists-worldwide-soars-80-just-year.html'

Obviously the KKK was a pretty low point in Christian's history (Along with opposing interracial marriage as well), but Christianity DID change those positions. Islam isn't even over the whole interfaith marriage thing yet, because it's a religion that tries to be immutable to change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_marriage_in_Islam

Now trillions of dollars spent, almost 15 years later, god knows how many lives lost with Bin Laden dead and ISIS on the ropes, was it really worth it? I'm not the kind of guy who screams "no more military, that's all wasted money!" but at the same time, is the amount of effort we are putting into "combatting" this "threat" really worth it? Again, I'm not saying "do nothing" but I would argue that the Afghan war and definitely the Iraq war achieved literally nothing.

Absolutely. Also Libry and not supporting Assad were awful mistakes we made which allowed this situation to happen. But now that the area's crumbling, the question should be if there's a way to fix what's going on, and who needs to do that.

Previously the radicals were kept in check by dictators, maybe we need to install new dictators? Maybe we need to become dictators? Maybe we need to kill the radicals? All 3 are possible options, but I'm not sure which is the most viable/effective.

Sect based separations were not an issue in Arab geography before Arab spring thing after all, there was a covert struggle between Iran vs Arab nations.

Sect-based separation has been an issue for quite some time. Especially since one sect (normally the minority) ruled the other sect with an iron-fist (normally the majority).

And just to nitpick, Iran vs arab nations is not entirely accurate. Turkey is not arab. They are... you guessed it... Turkish. So it's more like Iran vs Sunni-led nations or even Persian (the majority in Iran is Persian) vs Arabs. Even though the latter is just as inaccurate as the original statement.

Sect based separations were not an issue in Arab geography before Arab spring thing after all, there was a covert struggle between Iran vs Arab nations.

Sect-based separation has been an issue for quite some time. Especially since one sect (normally the minority) ruled the other sect with an iron-fist (normally the majority).

And just to nitpick, Iran vs arab nations is not entirely accurate. Turkey is not arab. They are... you guessed it... Turkish. So it's more like Iran vs Sunni-led nations or even Persian (the majority in Iran is Persian) vs Arabs. Even though the latter is just as inaccurate as the original statement.

There has been sect based conflicts for a very long while but it was a covert struggle between Sunni (led by Saudi Arabia) and Shia (led by Iran, sole Shia dominant sovereign country) before Arab Spring. Following Arab spring, it is more overt now (in Yemen for example) but making it an open playzone and sect related killings in post-Saddam Iraq and Syria are relatively new in comparison.

And for Turkey, as a Turk I didn't have much difficulty to guess :) , Turkey's policy until Erdogan was complete isolation from this "Middle East swamp". Unfortunately Erdogan changed this wise policy in favor of Sunni coalition with a brilliant vision that Esad will be removed in 3 months some 3 years ago. (not to mention unofficial economic aids in billion dollars.) Even though current administration is a passionate Esad hater and natural ally of Sunni coalition, Turkey isn't a place for sect based struggles or tensions, never been.

The West simply must come to grips with the reality that we have enemies in the world, even amongst us. The Far Left denies this.

Nobody here is saying to ban Muslims, as far as I can see. The Left is fond of false accusations and presumptions. Truth seems far from them.

None of the corrupt conditions in the increasingly degenerate West changes the fact that Islam has huge advantages in exploiting those self-imposed weaknesses of westerners.

Extreme Left dominates universities, media, and government in the USA and much of Europe. It is called Cultural Marxism. Research The Frankfurt School of Cultural Marxism and you will see many similarities with what is being pushed upon the populations of The West.

As I have shared with many people in the past, France has over 20% of births being from Islamic families and that rate is climbing steadily. This means that the next generation of people in France will be at least 20% Islamic. This condition has developed only in the last 30 years, which shows how quickly a nation can be overcome by Islam (projected into the future) when an excessively tolerant nation welcomes Islamic invasion with NO Borders and MASS immigration.

It might be too late for France and Sweden to avoid being Islamized. I believe that Belgium and The Netherlands are too late to stop it. Other nations will become too late in the next 20 years, including Britain, Germany, Norway, and Denmark.

Nice job, you nutcase Lefties are doing to Western Civilization. YOU are the extremists who are welcoming the opposite extremists. Far Left welcomes Far Right Islam.