I''ll have to agree with the original idea behind this topic, but making an extremely violent Unreal mod isn''t gonna prove any point. It''s just going to show those who are already anti-videogame violence that gamers adore that kind of stuff. I think the real answer to this "problem" would be for game developers who make games that are violent to add some kind of point to the violence. Soldier of Fortune is a good example. You might be able to blow limbs off, but that''s just an example of location based damage. It''s more realistic that way. Other games like Unreal Tournament (dont get the wrong idea, it''s my favorite FPS and I play religously...) include violent deaths for all the wrong reasons. When you get a head shot, the head pops off, and bounces around, leaving a trail of blood. Then people wonder why Senators etc. can say that the violence is comical.

If designers want to stand up for themselves, then they should do so in a more logical manner. If they go around creating pointlessly violent games, they''ll lose alot more support. At least a game like Soldier of Fortune (sorry, I cant think of other examples...) can show that it''s gore is attributed to realism. I personnaly prefer realism to random limbs flying in the air, but that''s just my opinion... I could be wrong...

quote: Original post by GreenGoblin
I think the real answer to this "problem" would be for game developers who make games that are violent to add some kind of point to the violence. Soldier of Fortune is a good example. You might be able to blow limbs off, but that''s just an example of location based damage. It''s more realistic that way.

"So you see, daddy, when I shoot the guy through the trachea, since he is gagging helplessly in his blood, he cant scream to call his mates, then I shoot through his knees, so he cant walk. Then I achieve him by slicing his already blood-dripping throat. Cool isnt it ? You know they hired a real mercenary to do all the animation ?"

Do I need to make my point any clearer or do you realise how NOT a good idea that is ?

If you want a good example of pointless realistic violence, you should watch Man eats Dog (I think that''s how you call it in english, it''s a belgian movie).
Or like I said above, watch Funny Games, by Heineke.

Then we talk

youpla :-P


Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

I got into to this one late... I''ve been busy designing

I got upset about something similar and wrote an article over on my web site. It discusses the ESRB, which I think is at the heart of evil. I have kids... and I choose what they can see, hear and what games they can play... This group and others like it are taking away the rights of parents. Any time a liberal group gets together and decides to tackle issues such as school violence and how to curb it - the parents loose some of their rights. Not just the parents but everyone.

As for the initial sentence from the article that Wavinator is upset about: "Cognitive dissonance" is a mental state produced by having two contradictory pieces of knowledge in one''s brain at the same time. The only thing that I can say is this... Everyone should not suffer the weakness of a few. If your mind is so weak as to not be able to choose right over wrong... you don''t deserve to live. Now, I''m sorry and saddened that a few people have to sufer the rediculous actions of these week minded idiots - but, I should not be forced to suffer as well!

Game On,

Dak.

I would say that violence in games does have an effect on people. Not a large effect, but one that contributes to the overall picture. There are lots of factors that make up the difference between a ''normal'' member of society and a mad killer like that. But there is something to note here: we get nearly all the same video games here in the UK that you guys do in the US, but do we get school massacres anywhere near as often as you do? Nope, not even close. That can partly be put down to the unavailability of guns here, but then you might expect a lot of knife rampages instead. They don''t happen. The problem is a social one, of which computer games are only a small part.

quote: Original post by Kylotan

I would say that violence in games does have an effect on people. Not a large effect, but one that contributes to the overall picture. There are lots of factors that make up the difference between a 'normal' member of society and a mad killer like that. But there is something to note here: we get nearly all the same video games here in the UK that you guys do in the US, but do we get school massacres anywhere near as often as you do? Nope, not even close. That can partly be put down to the unavailability of guns here, but then you might expect a lot of knife rampages instead. They don't happen. The problem is a social one, of which computer games are only a small part.

I agree completely. Granted guns make killing easier, but it's not the only reason. It is a social one. From what I've heard, video games are a very integral part of Japanese society, and from that article I referred to said they never have situations as we do in the US.

Although, I think that Belgium is going to be known for violence soon when MKV kicks all of our asses for going way off the topic of Game Design





Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.
What a plight we who try to make a story-based game have...writers of conventional media have words, we have but binary numbers


Edited by - Nazrix on March 16, 2001 5:48:33 PM

Ok, I''ve been thinking, and I don''t think making a really gory game will work, I think that a game with a good story will work. Here is what I wrote up in couple of minutes. I think that this would get people thinking more. Maybe throw in some stuff about the world turning into a new Nazi Germany.

So here it is (pretty long)...

After the shootings that occurred at the end and beginning of the turn of the millennium, the US government started to take action. Via spreading propaganda and using video games and the media as scapegoats. The US government turned its nation into a luddite civilization. In order to keep peace, the government stopped mass communication, thereby getting rid of the possibility of a mass uprising. The communication stoppage was performed in two ways. First, the United States Postal services went on a strike, and then the telephone workers did the same. The Internet became the only means of communication, and because email and telephony had gotten so popular by the time the strikes occurred, no one bothered to calm the workers and get them to work again. Communication was based solely on the Internet.
The media propelled the propaganda of video games causing shootings, and so first ratings were enforced on the video games. Then, like the prohibition of alcohol, an amendment was made to stop the manufacture, selling, or purchasing of any material which allowed a person to view or participate in any form of violent media, except for the retelling of events by the media.
The carnivore, electronic surveillance, program was given extra funds so that the government could keep a watch on any and all communication, in order to ensure that no premeditated acts of violence would occur. Therefore, encryption and stegnography (hiding messages in unlikely places such as inside pictures) became illegal, so that the carnivore program could watch over the US citizens more easily.
Gun laws were enforced so strictly that the possession of any gun, anywhere, would give you time in prison.
In order for other countries to keep the US as its allies, and to avoid war with the US, they were forced to sign agreements to enforce the same laws that the US was passing, which to the public looked like the world was becoming both more unified and less violent.


(Now for the reason to fight)

The government took out all the major backbones of the internet, and blamed it on script kiddies which had been plaguing the advent of the new millennium. Then martial law was enforced in order to keep the peace of those who tried to riot. Then the people were enslaved, and forced to work in order to begin a new “Manifest Destiny”, a new space race, we were going to colonize new planets and new solar systems. The people were forced to mine and build. Stories in the government controlled newspapers said things like “It is our destiny to explore and colonize!” “We need to live on new planets in case this one is destroyed via some cataclysmic event.” “We must move to a new planet, because we have polluted this one too much. We are dying and suffocating here, because of the industries that we created in the past.” Etc.

(Now for your story)

You are a worker in a coal mine, who is mining for materials to be used in the propulsion systems of the rockets. You must overthrow the “Triad” which has leaders from Euro (the nation created after all the nations of Europe combined), America (which through imperialism, annexed South America and the whole continent of North America), and Asia (which combined in order to compete against Euro and America, in case a war developed). Africa, Russia, and other countries were split up between these.
(anyway)

With the help of some of the other workers, you must use the propulsion devices to create weapons and thereby start a rebellion to bring the world back to its former liberty filled self and/or possibly help collonize one the new worlds, and create a new nation there. With life, liberty, and Justice for all!!!

If you want to make a good satire, it should make THEM look bad. Extra gore, choped up politicians, reporters, psychologists and oprah watching mothers is exactly what THEY want. What WE want is to protest against the VIOLENCE that THEY want to use against US. Because THEY are really VIOLENT. Trying to censor our games is HITTING us were it hurts most.

So lets take all these angry revolted characters that don''t understand why headshots in UT are cool, give THEM the ARSENAL and let''em loose.

This is a half-life mod description, and I think it should do with the AI of the initial half-life. It only has about four levels, but it needs a lot of talk and some quite big, hopefully shot with real cameras, movies.

TITLE : "DAMAGE" bad title, will only use it for reference.

THE INTRO : movie :

ANN, the heroine of our game, sitting on a couch, watching TV. 40 yrs old housewife, really concerned about what she sees. The camera zooms from ANN to the TV, where we can see the most ferocious attack on computer games violence, motivated by the effects of the new game "DAMAGE" (actual game images included) on the city. Bad talk & cusses, lack of respect, useless violence, criminality, riots. All the misfortunes of the world would come, say respectable members of the comunity. Something must be done, or we''ll plunge into anarchy. The TV is turned off, as we turn to Ann again.
----- ENTER , the voice of a MTV celebrity deathmatch comment guy, always cheerfull and enthusiastic, always carnage loving. This voice is playing Ann''s conscience. I''ll call it VC (voice of conscience) ------ VC happily repeats what the TV just said, in exact words, and as it speaks, we see Ann approve everything :
" This is bad " "This is worse than ever before" "Something MUST be done" Well, she has to do SOMETHING, so she goes to her husband''s AWESOME FIREARMS COLLECTION.

Now, the player can choose a weapon. We put there about 50 guns, but 45 are unavailable, because we don''t have time to code all of them, and the game must be somewhat small. If the player tries to take one of the 45 weapons, we hear the VC in a dissapointed voice, saying stuff like "Hey, there is a WAR out there" or "That piece of junk can only fire 450 rounds per minute". You have to take a BIG weapon. Preferably a Terminator 2 chaingun. (The game only takes care of ammo left in the weapon. It''s assumed you have infinite ammo in the backpack, cause we definetly don''t want the player saving ammo.)


Level 1 : the school

Guided by VC, you get to the school, the place where trouble is bound to happen in direct response to computer games (as we all know from the media). VC "You must go to the school before its too late. If they played "Damage", they''ll go there and shoot everybody". The VC takes great pleasure in pronouncing "shoot everybody". Along the way you see all sorts of bad omens, just like in the "halflife" game intro : graffiti on the walls, garbage thrown around, burned cars, nice people (with the scientist AI from halflife) giving you the latest grim news, and the VC commenting in a satisfied, almost happy tone "I knew this would happen", "What is the world coming to ?!", ...

Enter schoolyard, see first "Damage" player : a halflife scientist zombie-like creature dressed in highschool kid, with claws, green face, red eyes and everything else. The VC goes "And they said Computer Games don''t affect people". The zombie (with green blood, so that nobody has anything to say against the game), swings at you and the carnage begins. The VC says, admiring, excited, almost forgetting he is a nice person''s consciensce "What a CARNAGE !!"

Just like in halflife, Ann has to fight her way into the school where what friendly responsible fellow might give some clues to what happened and what can be done. As always, the VC closely guides her progress (the VC is very generous with UT-like comments such as "HEADSHOT", "Did you SEE THAT ?!!"). The friendly fellows found have been seen in the intro on TV (at least the important ones). Horror images of normal people eviscerated by the "Damage"d zombies, bodies all over the place tell the story of what can happen when computer games get loose.

Ann gets to the principal''s office (he is wearing suit and guerilla style chains of bullets all around him and has a big machine gun), finds out the zombies (former highschool kids) broke into the school''s computer science lab and played "Damage" till they turned green, destroys the lab, goes into the sewers to come up again after countless bullets and zombies wasted at a famous psychologist''s house, learning that an toxin that is generated by the human brain after (follows the time since the player played "Damage") hours of exposure to violence is responsible for the ireversible transformation into zombies, goes to the TV station where a crisis comitee is doing the best they can to keep things under control (in the TV station we get plenty of chances to create paranoid hysteric "the world''s going down" atmosphere : TV''s with "Damage", TV''s with disaster images, frantic reporters, etc.). The VC however is happier and happier. Here Ann finds out (just before the TV gets overrun by mutant zombies armed to their teeth) that the zombies are going to try to get to the satelite internet link (phones links have been cut already) to send "Damage" to the world. The VC goes on the well known "Holy mission to save the world" script. The zombies have taken over the antena (it''s a small town, there is only one), and Ann decides against fighting this devious well armed Counterstrike "I''ll shoot you in the head before you see me" veterans, and goes for the easy way of destroying the satelite dish : the military base nearby. After a REAL fight, with so many dead Rambos it almost gets loughable (they should die even if you miss them by considerable amounts), Ann unleashes a huge rocket attack against the town, pulverizing everything, thus saving the world, as the CV is so eager to state, trying to feel sorry for the hard but correct decision of blowing up the city, but enjoying every bit of the devastation.
The final cut scene : TV news , describing a crazed 40 years old woman (named Ann) that rampaged a city, killing highschool kids, soldiers, and bombarding the city to rubble, featuring an interview with a famous psychologist who corelates this incident with the ever increasing violence in the medias, especially the computer games. Followed by "In another story, computer game "Damage" (actual game images included) gets to first place in charts around the world"

the end


And if that''s not ironic, me spending three hours to write this sure is.

Diodor: that sounds like it could be a good game. A couple things. The main character has to be believable. You can''t have her as some hillbilly or something like that. It needs to be a normal looking soccer-mom, possibly with a soccer mom sticker on her car (which she runs people over in, in a movie or something), and maybe a PTSA (I''m really not sure what that stands for, but it is some parent association where uptite parents go, aka those who want to "get involved") meeting schedule on her refrigerator. Maybe the book "Chicken soop for the soul" is sitting on a table, along with the "Oprah" magazine.

Also, have her own children zombies. That outa turn some heads, because the effect should be "Wow, we are so outa touch with our own children, that we have turned against them." Have the voice of conscious say stuff like that every once in a while, so that people understand it better, and don''t interpret things differently.

I think gore should be added if it fits the game good. I think gore makes it more realistic I always wished games like zelda 64 would have gore, imagine link with blood all over his face and sword that would be sweet. I find games that make gore unrealistic really annoying though. I like quake but I think the gore is unrealistic. I really want to make a gorry ass scary game though kind of like silent hill but gorrier lol.


my 2cents

OoMMMoO

quote: By ahw
"So you see, daddy, when I shoot the guy through the trachea, since he is gagging helplessly in his blood, he cant scream to call his mates, then I shoot through his knees, so he cant walk. Then I achieve him by slicing his already blood-dripping throat. Cool isnt it ? You know they hired a real mercenary to do all the animation ?"

*Drool, wipes mouth...* Actually its better to aim for the body first then head becuase a body shot will stun then you just clean them up with a head shot. Guaranteed frag. But personally i don''t think games are violent enough, there''s definity not enough gore in games. This being the main reason why i was so shocked to hear people whinging about the violence in games. Games cost a lot of money so how are these kids getting them? If their parents aren''t buying the games for them then they are pirated so either way we can''t be blamed. End of story.


A designer doesnt need to know everything about code, they just have to have an appreciation for its limitations and how those limitations affect features they may wish to include in their design. - Drew