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Original post by Avatar God Discworld did have superior races... sort of. The gods (poor gods),

Are the Gods really superior, though? They're powerful, of course. But they're also petty and childish; and their very existance is dependent upon the faith of their followers.

Plus, they are nothing next to Human sorcerors.

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Death and his friends,

I'm not sure there are enough of these to make up a race, though. Death is obviously a very intelligent and very powerful entity. But he is, by nature, an archetype. When he steps out of his alloted role, things go badly wrong. He is superior in ability, but not really in potential.

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On the Star Wars side, at least the damn Wookies could manage something akin to speech (Shyriiwook) in 4, 5, and 6 (in fact, they made a point to do so). But in the new movies, the conversations were more along the lines of "Pitiful Roar," with the required response of "Equally Pitiful Roar."

They were also incredibly stupid. Having seen Yoda flip out and kill two clones without any provocation, they're just like "yeah, that must be okay". A member of any sane species would run away. Quickly.

Wow, you have an incredible ability to miss my points entirely...

Anyways, as for the Discworld comments, that's my point exactly. And as for the Star Wars ones, did you notice I was not being friendly to Episodes 1, 2, and 3? Besides, does the 'dumbness' really factor into the point I was making?

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Original post by Avatar God Wow, you have an incredible ability to miss my points entirely...

I aim to please.

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And as for the Star Wars ones, did you notice I was not being friendly to Episodes 1, 2, and 3? Besides, does the 'dumbness' really factor into the point I was making?

The point you were making, surely, was that the whilst Wookies were (almost) a complex and realistic species in episodes 4 through 6, they were reduced to the role of "primitive roaring warrior" in episode 3.

My point is that not only were they turned into zero-dimensional cardboard characters, but that the little characterisation they did have was thrown out of the window when Lucas needed Yoda to cut the clones' heads off. Rather than responding with, at least, "excuse me, master Jedi, but why did you do that" in Shyriiwook, they just turned off their brains because Lucas didn't feel like having Yoda explain himself. That would have at least been acceptable if there was some prior suggestion that the Wookies would accept whatever Yoda did without question.

By using them as little more than scenery, Lucas rendered them valueless within the storyline.

The scenery comment is perfect!

(I suppose I'm starting to drag this off-topic now) I would comment that running probably wouldn't have done any good. If Yoda wants to kill you, he's gonna kill you. Plus, wouldn't you just *have* to trust Yoda sometimes, what with him feeling the Force and all?

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Original post by Avatar God (I suppose I'm starting to drag this off-topic now) I would comment that running probably wouldn't have done any good. If Yoda wants to kill you, he's gonna kill you.

Sure. But then, not everybody can think smart in a crisis. (I'm thinking suddenly of somebody who did: Imhotep in The Mummy Returns, upon seeing the Scorpion King, immediately debases himself exclaiming "I am your humble servant". Pretty quick thinking.)

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Plus, wouldn't you just *have* to trust Yoda sometimes, what with him feeling the Force and all?

Some Force-users I wouldn't trust: Maul, Tyranus, Sidius, Vader.

And given that the Jedi council were oblivious to Palpatine's true identity, I'm not certain I'd feel inclined to trust them implicitly.

>>all offtopic
I don't know how I didn't have you rated up before.

Your ability to explain/argue (okay, ignore my previous comments!) in a civil manner and get your point across very well... well, it's impressive.

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Original post by Avatar God >>all offtopic I don't know how I didn't have you rated up before. Your ability to explain/argue (okay, ignore my previous comments!) in a civil manner and get your point across very well... well, it's impressive.

Hey no problem. [smile]

Now look. You've gone and made me feel smug!

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Original post by Sneftel Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did.

My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains.

Are my elves still Tolkien?

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Original post by MarkyX Quote: Original post by Sneftel Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did. My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains. Are my elves still Tolkien?

Those aren't elves, those are humans.

What are elves then? If they should always be the happy, enligthened tree huggers that come to aid the humans in time of need and enjoy the gift of immortality then no wodner they are such a cliche. I would personally love to see a dark deviation of the elves as mentioned by MarkyX.

Come to think of it the problem might not be in the elves themselves, but in the general fantasy settings that are always black and white and don't offer anything in between. People get tired of seeing the same old "good vs evil fight to end all fights". What makes narratives interesting is the development of characters and clash of different mentalities and ideologies. In cliche settings character development and the story outcome can be very predictable and do not offer enough emotional stimulation for the viewer/reader/player.