Quote: Original post by Extrarius
If you pick a nonstandard mythology, either you're going to have to include a tolkein-sized manual or you're going to have a LOT of players that have no idea what is going on. For example, I'd guess I know a lot more about mythologies than most because I've read several books on such things, and I still know very little about most of the mythological creatures mentioned in this thread.

A data point. Consider Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. Very popular game, well-received by critics and players alike... obviously they did things more or less right. KOTOR contains significant characters from at least a dozen different alien species. Many of these species had a very minor role in the movies, or were absent altogether. (I hear most were present in the novels, but obviously most players hadn't read those.) Yet despite the existence of all these races, each with dissimilar physical and behavioural traits, the game wasn't an endless game of catch-up. Clearly, it's possible to inundate players with a completely different cast of races, one they've never seen before, and not scare them off.

Quote: Original post by Extrarius
If you pick a nonstandard mythology, either you're going to have to include a tolkein-sized manual or you're going to have a LOT of players that have no idea what is going on.

I don't know if I agree with that. It's perfectly possible to present something new without bundling it with a 500 pages guide to it. Plenty of books and movies do that, without turning people off. Of course, it requires an amount of skill to present something interesting and draw people into it, but that doesn't mean it's implausible.
How do you think LoTR or Star Wars succeeded? They both managed to invent new universes and actually attract people's attention.
The same goes for Warhammer 40k or the Warcraft orcs mentioned earlier. Or the Discworld books, or Harry Potter. They all invent their own universes, and yet, I don't hear anyone saying they can't achieve success.

In any case, I think the important thing is just to remember to fit in your imagination somewhere. I don't care if the big green monsters are called orcs or lobster-men, but I do care about whether they were actually *made* for this setting, or just copied from something else.
You can call your races orcs and elves as much as you like, as long as they actually have an identity in your world. A good example is Warcraft. Sure, they're called orcs, just like in Tolkien. But they're actually a unique race created specifically for this universe. They're not Tolkien-orcs, despite sharing the same name. Nor are they just generic D&D'ish melee brutes.

Quote:
Most of the good ideas I've had or heard of for races come not from inventing something new, but twisting historical cultures together with a fantasy-race stereotype.

I don't even think you need to do that. You can just steal standard Tolkien orcs, and make them your own. That's what Blizzard or Games Workshop did.
They both took this generic "green monster the bad guys use as their main infantry unit", and invented a distinct culture around it. GW made a "completely battle-crazy brute who literally lives to fight anything that moves". Not a particularly realistic or "humanlike" race, but one that fits into the universe, and has its own flavor.
Blizzard created a primitive culture with a lot of human traits. Small shamanistic tribes who aren't actually created to fight someone else's war, like the LoTR orcs are, but leave their dead world and end up sharing another world with a bunch of other races, which obviously creates a lot of tension (Of course, the bit about them being possessed by demons to fight doesn't improve matters).

Both are clearly based on the standard Tolkien orcs, but that doesn't define either of them, it only serves as a starting reference.

The problem only occurs when you steal Tolkien orcs without bothing to make them your own. When they're just "green evil guys with axes", or even the generic <insert generic RPG creation myth here> which somehow manages to give them a history without actually defining the orcs you meet in the game.
That's where it gets boring. When orcs aren't an actual race, but simply a label because "Hey, we needed someone for the player to fight"

So, here's a (comparitively short) list of a few mythical races that haven't quite been run into the ground just yet (cash in quick): Jinn, Jotn, Dryads, Nereids, Cyclopes, Titans, Nephilim, Centaurs*, Undines, Sylphs, Formorians, Ogres, Valkyries, Nekomata, Kitsune, Faeries, Oreads, Asura, Yasha, Deva, Tengu, Oni, Harpies, Furies, Sirens, Gorgons, Minotaurs*.

*There's a whole taur/furry subculture. You can look at some artwork of that genre for some ideas, or you can check out my old animal races post.

This post wasn't meant to say that you should use these exactly as they were portrayed in mythology, but these could be used to base other races off of. You can look at their role in mythology and come up with something similar.

Quote: Original post by Extrarius
If you pick a nonstandard mythology, either you're going to have to include a tolkein-sized manual or you're going to have a LOT of players that have no idea what is going on. For example, I'd guess I know a lot more about mythologies than most because I've read several books on such things, and I still know very little about most of the mythological creatures mentioned in this thread.

I'll disagree with this too. Whether the player knows all about your story-content (world-building, in this case) really has very little to do with your success, except when considering the portion of your audience which really cares about that.

I really think most gamers are in it for game-play. I stopped playing games for story reasons long ago. If I want a great story I go read a book. If I want interactive fun I play a game. Do one thing and do it well. (Unix, anyone?) Story is gravy.

Ultimately, you know what determines if your design works? It works if it works. Just like anything else in life. We can debate the chances of success of just about anything until we're blue in the face, but when it comes down to it, we really have very little ability to predict what's going to succeed and why.

Quote: Original post by Sneftel

Yes, elves and goblins have been around for awhile. But then, so have ifrits, and shedu (shedus?), and kappas.

Yes check out Harry Potter, it borrows creatures from many different mythologies.

"For me, the concept that an entire race of beings have the same interests is worn out. We don't need new races, but we do need new, deep, cultures."

What about a truly multi-cultural odeh society, where orcs etc all live together and have rubbed some of the edges off each other (ha!) can you say Ankh-Morporkh?

It isn't just the history. Elves already make sense at a deeper level. If Tolkien would have introduced Elves who were miners and loved machines, Dwarves who were wise and good at magic and archery, and intellectual orcs, the immersion in his book would have suffered.

If you make a lobsterman, he'd better be sufficiently alien to not cause much cognitive dissonance. No one is going to believe they're engineers, because they probably wouldn't be able to acquire much manual dexterity with claws. Similarly, if you have a Wizard class, it'll be hard to create a magical system where both the lobsterman and the human mage learn the same fireball spell and keep immersion, since a player would assume the cognitive structures of the two races would be vastly different. Players won't consciously think about it, but violating these unconscious laws will affect immersion. That doesn't mean you can't make a race of lobstermen; I could see them being brawlers and telepaths.

The secret is to have the races follow an internal logic as deeply as possible. This is an aesthetic judgement, not a rational one. They need to have their own distinct personalities and cultures, they need to be "real enough" to the player. Players want to play elves because they're elves, not because of the bonus to dexterity.

Slapping different races onto a game whose story, mechanics, and overall depth of gameplay don't back it up or make it necessary is going to seem stupid. But novelty for the sake of novelty, making an arbitrary pandaman or rhinoman, is goign to seem just as stupid.

As a good example, I recommend the races of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, and the jobs (classes) they can take on. The story is minimal, but each of the races has it's own internal logic, enriching the gameplay.

I don't anyone quite remembers Zelda: Ocarina of time....They had three races who where quite different from your common fantasy setting. Kokiri, Zoras and Gorons.

For Gorons and Zoras they basicly took a blank race, put them in a location like a mountain or the ocean. Then they splashed the local elements on them...rocks and fish. There's your answer. That game became a classic and didn't confuse anything. It sold plenty.




There's no reason why you couldn't also consider hybrid races. Goblins who are highly industrial and care nothing but constructing better and newer machines. You get kond of a Dwarf like attitude on them, but it fits since they have long slender fingers.

Giants who are tall and slender rather then your stereotypical giant who is think and stupid. They're oversized elves, you can still use the elven ranger formula... But it's easily different enough for an audience due the fact that their bows and arrows would be huge and they wouldn't be as "stealthy" or elegent due to their size.

NOTE: Nobody steal my ideas, I'm using them on something.

feel free to steal my telepathic lobsterman brawlers.

Well it would be nice for each race to e in some different situation.

Elves are always caring about the planet and wildlife. That's all fine and good but I could join green peace in real life.

How many times have dwarves built magnificent cities underground, too many.

On the legend of zelda races subject, don't you think that al that's been done is that they are elves and dwarves painted over.

Hyrulians = Humans with pointy ears.
Zoras = Elves, just with ablilties in swimming, and care about sea life instead of trees. I always feel a soft air arround them, just like elves.
Gorons = Dwarves, taller and more adapted to digging.

Put I feel this is a good thing, you feel like these are very different races, but they really arn't so you are not distanced away from them like you would from donkey people.

Quote: Original post by abstractimmersion
It isn't just the history. Elves already make sense at a deeper level. If Tolkien would have introduced Elves who were miners and loved machines, Dwarves who were wise and good at magic and archery, and intellectual orcs, the immersion in his book would have suffered.

Er, which deeper level is that?
Why does the stuff Tolkien made up make more sense than what other people make up?
If Tolkien had decided that Elves should be miners, then elves would be miners, and it'd make just as much sense.
You seem to think we're born with this imprinted idea that elves are wise, magical archers. We're not. It's not even some ancient legend or old myth. Tolkien made it up.

Quote: Similarly, if you have a Wizard class, it'll be hard to create a magical system where both the lobsterman and the human mage learn the same fireball spell and keep immersion, since a player would assume the cognitive structures of the two races would be vastly different.

Why? Or rather, why doesn't the same apply to humans and elves then? Shouldn't they also be unable to learn the same fireball spell?

Quote:
The secret is to have the races follow an internal logic as deeply as possible. This is an aesthetic judgement, not a rational one. They need to have their own distinct personalities and cultures, they need to be "real enough" to the player. Players want to play elves because they're elves, not because of the bonus to dexterity.

I mostly agree. Except on the last part. Part of the problem is that in too many games, elves are nothing more than a bonus to dexterity.
But you're right, the important thing is to make a race that seems consistent and plausible.

Quote: Slapping different races onto a game whose story, mechanics, and overall depth of gameplay don't back it up or make it necessary is going to seem stupid.

Yep. Unfortunately this is what most fantasy games do, and why they seem stupid. They just assume that hey, if we grab elves, dwarves and orcs, we've got a setting, and so we don't actually need to put any work into it.

The (few) games that actually bother to make a setting that makes sense are usually great, even if they just have the standard races.