Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did.

My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains.

Are my elves still Tolkien?

Quote: Original post by MarkyX

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did.

My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains.

Are my elves still Tolkien?

Those aren't elves, those are humans.

What are elves then? If they should always be the happy, enligthened tree huggers that come to aid the humans in time of need and enjoy the gift of immortality then no wodner they are such a cliche. I would personally love to see a dark deviation of the elves as mentioned by MarkyX.

Come to think of it the problem might not be in the elves themselves, but in the general fantasy settings that are always black and white and don't offer anything in between. People get tired of seeing the same old "good vs evil fight to end all fights". What makes narratives interesting is the development of characters and clash of different mentalities and ideologies. In cliche settings character development and the story outcome can be very predictable and do not offer enough emotional stimulation for the viewer/reader/player.

Quote: Original post by Lamoot
What are elves then? If they should always be the happy, enligthened tree huggers that come to aid the humans in time of need and enjoy the gift of immortality then no wodner they are such a cliche.

I think you mistook irony for seriousness.

MarkyX's elves are interesting, but as you say yourself, real cultures aren't so black-and-white.

Quote:
I would personally love to see a dark deviation of the elves as mentioned by MarkyX.

MarkyX's elves are actually pretty derivative themselves. [smile]

From Scottish folk-lore, we have the Drow, or dark-elf. They're evil fairy-like creatures.

Norse mythology gives us the Dökkálfar, which are evil human-sized elves. (Generally, Norse elves of any kind are human-sized)

In Dungeons & Dragons, we have the Drow, which you probably already know of.

Even Tolkien had 'dark elves' of a sort: the orcs are elves that were abducted and corrupted by Morgoth.

Quote:
Come to think of it the problem might not be in the elves themselves, but in the general fantasy settings that are always black and white and don't offer anything in between.

The problem is that fantasy draws from myth, and myth is clichéd by design. The mythological elf, dwarf, troll, nixie or whatever represents a particular aspect of the human psyche. Tolkien's races do the same, because they were intended to be mythological.

Dungeons & Dragons has a slightly more involved mix because it has stereotypical mythological races, and then variants of those.

Quote:
People get tired of seeing the same old "good vs evil fight to end all fights". What makes narratives interesting is the development of characters and clash of different mentalities and ideologies.

Such as good vs. evil. [wink]

A possible reason why you don't see so many genuine ideological struggles in movies and games is that developers/filmers want to reduce the number of people who wouldn't like the game/movie because they disagree with the ideology that wins, or they're upset because neither of them win.

Quote:
In cliche settings character development and the story outcome can be very predictable and do not offer enough emotional stimulation for the viewer/reader/player.

You're probably being a little unfair on writers, here. Whilst lots of writers are clichèd, it is at least possible to find books which are not. And handily, the quality of the book is largely unrelated to the funding it receives, quite unlike movies and games, so books which take an inventive approach can be just as well-written as those which don't (although perhaps harder to find).

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum

Quote: Original post by MarkyX

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did.

My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains.

Are my elves still Tolkien?

Those aren't elves, those are humans.

Reason why I pick elves is because they are often seen as some sort next step in evolution for humans.

Picture this: You're an elf. You are taller, faster, better shape, and have much greater senses then a human. Now throughout your childhood life, you've been told that your God made you this way and to show to the rest of the world that you are better than everyone else, including your own kind.

A bit of symbolism and a nice twist to an "ancient" race. That is MY elf ;)

Quote: Original post by MarkyX

Quote: Original post by Nathan Baum

Quote: Original post by MarkyX

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Seriously. Tolkien's Celtic/Norse thing worked fine for Tolkien, but that's not the only possible conception of "fantasy". I think that world designers these days lack either the willpower to defy the cliches of the genre, or the competence to draw from primary mythological sources like Tolkien did.

My elves are religious freaks that going around killing each other because of what a fairy tale told them to. They also commit daily genocides to other races, and a very small faction of them tend the dead for 'spiritual' gains.

Are my elves still Tolkien?

Those aren't elves, those are humans.

Reason why I pick elves is because they are often seen as some sort next step in evolution for humans.

Picture this: You're an elf. You are taller, faster, better shape, and have much greater senses then a human. Now throughout your childhood life, you've been told that your God made you this way and to show to the rest of the world that you are better than everyone else, including your own kind.

A bit of symbolism and a nice twist to an "ancient" race. That is MY elf ;)

However, I'm willing to bet that they're still tall, fair of face and pointy-eared.

Are books so 20th Century now that they've gone out of fashion? There are _hundreds_ of good fantasy novels. Even Terry Pratchett can do parody, satire _and_ original takes on tired old tropes. Often at the same time.

Why elves? Because they're easy. People know what they look like. They're familiar. They're cosy. They're like putting on a favourite pair of slippers. They're the comfy, somewhat battered armchair you like to sit in while watching TV.

In short: they've been done to death and are now taken for granted.

Why in hell can't I play as Baba Yaga for once?


Human mythologies are many, wide, varied and far, far richer and more diverse than those found in some 1980s TSR AD&D book.

Here. This is just Volume 1 of 4. I'll grant that Campbell is a much better researcher than he is a writer, but these are an amazing reference source nonetheless.

Another goldmine of myths and legends can be found here.

Quote: I think you mistook irony for seriousness.

Hard to distinct the two if you don't know the person and especially over the internet where you can't see the speaker's facial expressions and hear the tone of his voice. But true, I did take your comment as serious.

Evil elves are usually perfectly evil, they only lust for death and blood for no apparent cause or a very corny one along the lines of "the dark lord wishes it so..." MarkyX's elves seem more realistic (at least to me) because the reasons for their behaviour are more believable and also relate more to the world we live in.

Quote: The problem is that fantasy draws from myth, and myth is clichéd by design.

That's why people should use myths only as an inspiration and then expand upon them to create something new. As stimarco mentioned there are many other mythologies yet to be explored and yes I would also like to see Yaga Baba in some game or play as one. Who cares about immortal bloodsucking vampires, if you can be an ugly canibalistic old woman in a mortar :)

Quote: Such as good vs. evil.

In "Ghost in the shell" you have the relation between human and machine and the question of what life actually is and what is that that defines what we are. I don't see this as a fight between good or evil but it most certainly is interesting. This is the kind of ideology clash I meant ;) I admit though, if done properly, good vs evil can also be very fun to watch/read.

Quote: You're probably being a little unfair on writers, here...

The only criteria I follow here is whether the story/fantasy world interested me and reached my thoughts or provoked certain emotions. It's just that cliche things usually tend to do this less than something original since they are simplified to appeal the masses.

I've always found it pretty odd that despite the Elves' superiority in nearly every way, they're still the underdog, low population, low technology (for the fantasies where technology has entered the scene, like Warcraft) and what-not.

The problem with Elves is that they're becoming too stereotypical. The usual, magic, pacifist treehugger. They're becoming very predictable, and I'd say the same thing if humans had these characteristics in fantasies. That said, most other fantasy races are indeed rather boring as well, since your everyday Orc will always be looking for a fight and nothing more...

Strangely enough, I find Tolkien's version of fantasy one of the most interesting ones. The oath of Feanor is definetly something you'd not expect from Elves in most modern fantasies, but it makes the Elves all the more realistic, interesting and... Well, less annoying. I can't stand the treehuggers.

Just see which race is going to be more popular in WoW: The rather classical Night Elves, or the refreshingly cool Blood Elves. I think the latter.

My apologies if this has been said before, but it was a long thread... ;)

Anywho, what you really want for a game is something that *does* have a background.

If it fits in with what people expect, then it's one hell of a lot easier to put in. No backstory: dwarves are short, and tend to go around with axes and mine metals and forge cool weapons (axes :D ). You can put them in with ease, and noone will blink an eye.

However, if you make your "dwarves" tall guys, who have advanced literature skills, and are pacifists and wave flowers, then you're going to have a tough time making people SEE your picture of what a dwarf is. It's just too outlandish to be convincing in the imagination.

This is what gets you stuck in that old groove... (as mentioned it's all people like Tolkien's fault. Dwarfs or dwarves anyone? ;) )

The trouble with original material is not that there's none of it, but that it's very difficult to get past the initial stereotypes. You veer too close to short people and everyone starts thinking dwarves (unless you make them green with *ears* then they think Yoda, or floaty with wings when they think fairies of some kind).

However, with original material, you need *some* kind of backstory, otherwise people still can't see it. The designer has to provide that, which makes it all the more difficult.

But that's not to be said that you can't get some originality, even with an old concept.

Anyone heard of Quylthulgs? ;)

You don't have to change a Dwarf's (or Elf's) appearance in order to make them interesting. If they're short and beardy, you can still have your own, interesting way with them. Why is it that Dwarves, despite being immensely wealthy, are still living under their old mountains, and showing nothing of that on the outside? Why don't Dwarves ever want to conquer the world (I know, I know)? Why don't Dwarves have any philosophies?