Quote: Original post by ComradeJ
You don't have to change a Dwarf's (or Elf's) appearance in order to make them interesting. If they're short and beardy, you can still have your own, interesting way with them. Why is it that Dwarves, despite being immensely wealthy, are still living under their old mountains, and showing nothing of that on the outside? Why don't Dwarves ever want to conquer the world (I know, I know)? Why don't Dwarves have any philosophies?

Oh I can so answer this with my version of dwarves, but I really don't want to sound like I'm pimping here.

Exactly. Dwarves aren't portrayed as a race, but simply as people who forge and use axes, are short, and live in mountains.

Ok, of course a dwarf has to be short. Otherwise he isn't a dwarf.
But shouldn't he also have a life? Shouldn't they have a culture, philosophies, desires and needs (beyond metal to make axes from)? hell, if you follow the way most games portray dwarves, they obviously don't even eat. They have no farmers, no traders, no way to get food.
Every game has human farmers, as well as human warriors and human weaponsmiths. That's a good start on a culture that actually works, and is consistent.

Same goes for elves. Fine, I can live with giving them pointy ears, and give them some kind of connection to trees. But shouldn't they get more than that? Shouldn't they have individual lives and desires? Shouldn't they have goals? Shouldn't they have a history? Or some explanation for how they've achieved all the stuff they have? How can they build an entire city in a treetop, when they don't have any carpenters? Who do they call when it breaks? Who makes their fine clothes? The only elves we see are the ones standing around guarding, joining your party, or ruling the nation and occasionally giving you quests. How do they learn to use magic? How do they become so wise? It's not like they have schools or anything.

Quote: Oh I can so answer this with my version of dwarves, but I really don't want to sound like I'm pimping here.

Please do, I'm always interested in hearing good ideas, but beware we might steal them ;)

p.s. how do I insert wink smiley?

Quote: Original post by ComradeJ
You don't have to change a Dwarf's (or Elf's) appearance in order to make them interesting. If they're short and beardy, you can still have your own, interesting way with them. Why is it that Dwarves, despite being immensely wealthy, are still living under their old mountains, and showing nothing of that on the outside? Why don't Dwarves ever want to conquer the world (I know, I know)? Why don't Dwarves have any philosophies?

Terry Pratchett.

I've mentioned him before (possibly in another thread), but the point is that he _does_ have new takes on _all_ the High Fantasy clichés. And he does it _bloody well_. His dwarves _do_ have back-stories, histories, philosophies, characters and (if you'll forgive the unavoidable pun), depth. Ditto for all the other overfamiliar races.

But this leads me to the big problem with using these characters: they are _overused_. "Elves" have been in seemingly every blasted fantasy novel since the 1950s. Tolkien started it, to be fair, but at least he took some care over them and gave all his species a bit of backstory. (Well, the Orcs were a bit one-dimensional, but nobody's perfect.)

And what's with the surreal claims that you _have_ to use existing fantasy character types? Why do you _HAVE_ to have "Elves" in your story? Why do you _HAVE_ to have "Dwarves"?

Star Wars is a fantasy that creates its own mythos, albeit mostly through substitution:

* Magic --> The Force
* Good vs. Evil --> Light Side vs. Dark Side
* Comedy relief dwarfs --> Comedy relief (an)droids
* Save The Princess! --> Save The Princess! (Okay, scratch that...)
* etc.

Some of the SW characters are composites. The Jedi, for instance, are a cross between the Romantic Knight of old, coupled with the Mage/Wizard.

The tiresome dwarves, elves and orcs were replaced by the (an)droids and aliens. None of the original trilogy of movies was perfect, but "A New Hope" was _explicitly_ written with reference to Vogler's analysis of Joseph Campbell's "Monomyth" theory, so there is a very strong mythic feel to this particular movie.

What made this first Star Wars movie a classic is the attention to detail in plot and characterisation. This is something I cannot stress enough: Star Wars is a fantasy movie that just happens to have aliens and spaceships in it. At one point, Lucas even considered casting dwarfs to play Luke and his uncle and aunt.

There is absolutely no reason why a fantasy story _has_ to have elves, dwarfs, orcs, etc. in any recognisable form. What's important to the readers isn't what a character's species is called, but _who_ they are and _what_ they do. _That_ is characterisation.

Nobody ever said writing fiction was easy.

Quote: Original post by stimarco
Terry Pratchett.

I've mentioned him before (possibly in another thread), but the point is that he _does_ have new takes on _all_ the High Fantasy clichés. And he does it _bloody well_. His dwarves _do_ have back-stories, histories, philosophies, characters and (if you'll forgive the unavoidable pun), depth. Ditto for all the other overfamiliar races.

Fair enough, but you'll have to agree that 99/100 fantasy writers don't use depth.

Quote:
But this leads me to the big problem with using these characters: they are _overused_. "Elves" have been in seemingly every blasted fantasy novel since the 1950s. Tolkien started it, to be fair, but at least he took some care over them and gave all his species a bit of backstory. (Well, the Orcs were a bit one-dimensional, but nobody's perfect.)

Well, Tolkien's Dwarves weren't especially worked out, but they never did do all that much (except in the Hobbit... But that focuses on Hobbit lifestyles a lot) in his books. Tolkien wasn't trying to make you feel with the Dwarves or with the Orcs, but with the Hobbits and humans, who are really the stars of the books. These two races are pretty deeped out. While you can define Dwarves as short axepeople and orcs as ugly evil d00dz, you can't define his Hobbits or humans in a few words.
Most fantasy games also let you play as a Dwarf, Orc or Elf. If you want a player/reader to feel with these you need to give them a background, a feel, a sense of realism.

Quote:
And what's with the surreal claims that you _have_ to use existing fantasy character types? Why do you _HAVE_ to have "Elves" in your story? Why do you _HAVE_ to have "Dwarves"?

Star Wars is a fantasy that creates its own mythos, albeit mostly through substitution:

* Magic --> The Force
* Good vs. Evil --> Light Side vs. Dark Side
* Comedy relief dwarfs --> Comedy relief (an)droids
* Save The Princess! --> Save The Princess! (Okay, scratch that...)
* etc.

Agreed, though I'm in doubt wether the entire concept of Good vs. Evil with magic isn't overused. Personally, I like WH40K. Just a bunch of half-evil, half-goods. All the factions do evil stuff, yet they have their reasons to do so.

The question would be, although it's going rather off-topic, is it better to have the old values (like Good vs. Evil) in a new coat, or to have the old races with new values? I think the latter.

Quote:
Some of the SW characters are composites. The Jedi, for instance, are a cross between the Romantic Knight of old, coupled with the Mage/Wizard.

Elves could've been that, without losing their Elfness...

Quote:
There is absolutely no reason why a fantasy story _has_ to have elves, dwarfs, orcs, etc. in any recognisable form. What's important to the readers isn't what a character's species is called, but _who_ they are and _what_ they do. _That_ is characterisation.

Nobody ever said writing fiction was easy.

But the classical races are very recognisable, and can still be innovative. You could give Elves a cool philosophy. New, or ignorant, people will recognise Elves, know that they're magical archers and are happy. People with more interests could go into depth on their background, finding a totally new view on the old cliche Elves. If you have new races, or just various human factions, you might scare off some people.

That seems like an odd justification. The inexperienced and/or ignorant are exactly the kind of people who are unlikely to care if you make unstereotypical races, because they won't know what the racial stereotypes are.

I actually think the more likely reason we don't see games with unstereotypical races is that publishers think consumers will be scared off and so are unwilling to fund such games.

There may also be the rather ironic presumption that a game with humans/elves/dwarves/orcs must be better than a game with humans/canotila/qutrubs/sianaches, because the former arrangement is the result of decades of careful design by an assortment of authors, whilst the latter was made up on the spot by this author.

please let this topic die, Im tired of seeing it.

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
please let this topic die, Im tired of seeing it.

Hmm. So you because whoever you are is tired of seeing this topic, anyone who has anything to say, even if it's interesting and insightful, should shut up? Would it not be easier if you just stopped looking at it? Or maybe I'm being unreasonably fascist about the whole thing.

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
please let this topic die, Im tired of seeing it.

Look, I'm playing the world's most anonymous violin!

Quote:
anyone who has anything to say, even if it's interesting and insightful, should shut up? Would it not be easier if you just stopped looking at it? Or maybe I'm being unreasonably fascist about the whole thing.

Naw, simply more material for you to argue and whine about. enjoy!
Considering how long it is taking you to discuss this topic (of some guy simply bitching about being tired of elves), Im not sure when this thread was started, but it seems to die off and then come back a few days later. Do not miss the point: Hurry up, not shut up! It is annoying to see a thread die off for a while and then get picked up again, simply for the sake of arguing amongst all things: one person's distaste for elves. Its done, everybody gets it, let it die.

maybe I'm being unreasonably about the whole thing... :P

Quote:
Look, I'm playing the world's most anonymous violin!

freaking sweet! keep up the good work.

from the original thread that started it all...

Quote:
It should be dead by now.