What I meant was something along the lines of:

"I have decided to write a story about four guys overcoming society's prejudices. I definitely feel it should be guys, because there is actually much prejudices against homosexuals in out society, and since I am interested in Shoujo Manga, I thought I could write something involving some soft sex scenes convincingly enough to make it worth reading. I think it is my forte.

Why four? Because of the group dynamic I am intending to use, like a waltz or something of a square dance (swap-your-partner-hop-si-do...) Plus I have this image of my protagonists. Most of their character is already drawn out. There are still some reactions I miss, but I plan on finding out what they would think in such and such situation.


Why they should overcome prejudices? Well, this is the basic of the story. It culminates in them overcoming the prejudices. (can you tell me what prejudices and how they do that?) Not yet, sorry. But am working on that.

Why should they be prejudiced by society instead of a group, or their very situation? Well, since I went the homosexual way, I think it was the easiest way of doing things: They are prejudiced by society for being homosexual. Period. (Maybe you could explain WHY they are prejudiced for being homosexual, eh?)

And I have decided it would be a dragon society. Why? Well, because it wold add a more alien landscape to the story. If it was about four guys in manhattan, everybody would overlook it. Moreover, I love Fantasy, and want to dig into this pool. But to make it interesting and easier for me to introduce the reader slowly to the world, I want to make one of the characters a human, newcomer to this world. Maybe give him a dragon shape, i don't know yet. (Is the dragon shape important to the ending?) Yes probably, because I want them to be homosexual, not zoophiles... (Ah, yes, sorry...)"

Well, sort of thing.

Ok, now, let me discuss what you've been saying...

Quote:

1) What is love? Love is friendship + passion + commitment. This is something of a mystery to me because I am by nature a calm person, not a passionate or (possessive) one, and I have something of a fear of commitment, and the clear line that other people seem to see between friendship and attraction is very blurry to me. So I wanted to explore these mysteries and this equation with a novel. Merru is much like me in that he is calm, sees no difference between a friend and a casual lover, tries to avoid commitment and responsibility, but needs to finde love to be complete. Attranath has a strong instinct for commitment which Merru studies and admires, and his innocence and vulnerability compel Merru to take responsibility for him.(what are the reasons of this compulsion? Why does he feel compelled to do so?)Lieann is passionate and possessive, and these traits call forth and answering passion and possessiveness that Merru didn't know he had. Ravennin has the strong instinct to take responsibility as a leader can you tell me what kind of instinct, do you think a natural born leader should have and that is NOT found in anybody else in this group? , which relieves Merru of the burden of being a leader and allows him to take his true role of being an advisor/teacher/mother type instead.

Quote:

2) Responsibility, commitment, and posessiveness all have to do with freedom. I chose to make Merru a construct who was treated like an animal, and later will be captured and/or blackmailed by Lieann, because these scenarios give me the opportunity to explore what sorts of freedom Merru has and needs. Lieann is also an interesting example of a type of freedom because while the other three characters worry about being diplomatic, Lieann knows he can't please anybody anyway so he is free to just say whatever is on his mind, insults and all.

Ok, so that gives you Liean's behavior throughout the story. Does that help you see how he should react to help your story unfold? Then can you figure to WHAT he has been reacting, in order to get where he is supposed to be?

Quote:

3) I think the biggest cause of problems and unhappiness in our society is that people are sheep, who don't even realize how their freedom is crippled by the social prejudices and preconceptions they have been taught, and which can inspire others to violently deny and condemn anyone who doesn't behave 'normally' and 'decently'. Lieann and Merru show two different approaches to trying to fight these prejudices and free Ravennin and Attranath from their crippling preconceptions.

GOOD!! This gives you ONE more natural behavior for your characters, which means that you now intimately know both Merru and Lieann. But you said that there were four. How are supposed to evolve Attranath and Ravennin? What is it that gets them going? How do they talk? What are their personal goals, and their personal ways of pursuing them? How will they be changed?

Quote:

Also, I don't understand what you mean by "I would like you to ARGUMENT, EACH TIME, the progression of the story." Could you please give an example? I would like to do this, it seems like it might be useful, I'm just not sure what you actually want me to write.

What I meant is that you should be able to tell WHY the things are happening. As I said earlier in this thread, litterary causality is NOT an option (it happens THIS way instead of a more natural or easy one, because I need this as an aftermath...)

Tell you what. Let's pretend you are a coroner and you have to make an autopsy of your world building, what will you find in it? What was the previous state of your society? And the previous? Where do they come from? How did they evolve into society? What were their ancestors like? (yeah, I KNOW we've been through this already, but maybe we've missed something, and I'll feel all the better for putting it together once again.) Why do they live the life they live? why are they prejudiced against homosexuals? Why do these four young ones have to meet in the first place?

Oh, you want me to give a rationale for each of my worldbuilding choices. Ok, I can do that. What I originally thought was that you wanted me to post my current chapter outline and analyze it chapter by chapter to see if I was happy with it and if not, what should be tweaked to make me happy with it. I want to do this too, although I should probably get more than 14 chapters (out of about 45) of the outline typed up first. ;)

Okay why 4 male characters? There are several reasons for this, but they add up to the fact that a gay romance story is more esthetically pleasing to me than a straight romance story. (The individual reasons adding up to this are: I have difficulty thinking of female personalitites as romantic. Because of this I am much more motivated to write male characters than female characters. When I am at the bookstore I am always frustrated because there aren't enough gay romance novels to read. Because I have read more gay erotica than straight erotica I am more familiar with how to write it. I know there is a fairly large audience of women who love gay romance novels because I've met so many of them in varius anime, science fiction, and fantasy fangroups - it's an underexploited market where I could make a big name for myself. I decided to go with fairly explicit sex scenes because that's what this audience wants and I enjoy writing them. I decided against doing a bisexual romance because these work better with groups of 3 characters than groups of 4 characters, and because the market for these is actually much smaller than the market for a homosexual romance.)

Also, forbidden romances in general are fun, and prejudice against homosexuality is a good way to create forbiddenness and study the issue of the difference between what is socially acceptable and what is morally acceptable. Prejudice against homosexuality is an excellent choice of prejudice for exploring how preconceptions cripple people and why it is urgent to free your mind from these preconceptions and instead pursue what makes you happy. It is great for this for several reasons: Loneliness and sexual desire are one of the strongest possible character motivations, as well as being inherently enjoyable to read about and symathetic to most readers. Homosexuality is a behavior expressing an instinct one begins to feel as a young adult, rather than a condition one is born into. So the characters' conscious struggle with it and adaptation to it makes prejudice against homosexuality better to write about than prejudice against race, gender, etc. And homosexuality does not harm anyone or have much effect on anyone who does not choose to participate in it; prejudice against homosexuality is motivated purely by people's fear of anything different, so it's a good example of a prejudice to argue against because you don't get bogged down in wondering whether it might be beneficial or self-defensive to be prejudiced against it, as you might if you wanted to arge about, say, drug use instead.



Now I'll answer your questions about the characters. :)

Quote:

Attranath's innocence and vulnerability compel Merru to take responsibility for him.(what are the reasons of this compulsion? Why does he feel compelled to do so?)

Merru believes that because the universe is not inherently kind and fair the way it should be, it is the duty of humans to work to make it as kind and fair as possible. So since Merru is intelligent and good at seeing the problems that keep people like Attranath from being happy, it is his civic duty to do what he can to help them solve their problems. But Merru is a free agent and his own happiness comes first... UNTIL he becomes friends with Attranath. Since Attranath gives Merru his loyal friendship, Merru must in return take responsibility for helping and protecting Attranath. (It's the same as with Lieann and passion, only Merru and Lieann have an equal relationship whereas Merru and Attranath have a big brother/little brother relationship.)

Quote:

Can you tell me what kind of instinct, do you think a natural born leader should have and that is NOT found in anybody else in this group?

While Merru takes responsibility because someone ought to and he's good at it, even though it wears at him, Ravennin thrives on having responsibility, giving orders, protecting others. So Ravennin's instinct is to take responsibility and give orders, and what he wants in return is people to be grateful for his leadership and want to be possessed by him. This, in turn, is what Attranath excells at - being possessed, being a loyal helpful follower who needs protected and admires his leader. So Ravennin and Attranath are evolved further in relation to each other, as a dominant/submissive pair.

They are also further evolved by my desire to present characters who demonstrate a complete spectrum of masculinity: Ravennin is a man's man who prefers actions to words, Lieann has a masculinely aggressive personality in a feminine body, Merru has a gender neutral personality in a masculine body, and Attranath has a feminine personality in a mediumly masculine body. In some ways the novel is intended as a Men's Studies book, like many of my favorite sociological science fiction novels were intended as Women's Studies books.


Okay, now I'll go back to working on my outline for a while. ;) Tell me what else you want me to explain my reasons for. The clan-based society maybe?

Well, I think we covered the bases with the clan society. More or less. Maybe we should see that again. But most of all, I would like you to tell me where everything begins. When it begins. And if possible, why it begins. You made it clear for the characters, now, I would like to make it clear for the rest of the world. There are supposed to be more than four characters in this story, so how are they related to the four main characters, and what are THEIR personal goals in this story?
Are they an opposing force to one or more character? Are they bystanders? Are they competitors (opposing force, but not prejudiced against them?) Tell me more about those secondary roles, and what part they should get.

Well, there are more than 4 characters, but none of the other characters are Primary characters; they don't evolve during the course of the story, and their goals aren't particularly important. The purpose of the secondary characters is to represent a cross-section of dragon society. (Lol I'm thinking of Chaucer's _Canterbury Tales_) The function of society is mainly to watch the characters and comment on their actions. These comments are often embarrassing, sometimes condemning or misleading, and occasionally insightful or spurring a character to a resolve. Society may also give orders, mainly to Attranath and Ravennin, provide settings such as a training exercise or a party, and be an obstacle by withholding approval until the climax where it is compelled to give its approval. So, in general Society doesn't take any actions, it just talks.

Society's characterization is that it likes tradition, pomp, and order, and is family-oriented and protective of children. So it fears anything different because it might be a threat to the things Society is protecting.

I haven't firmly decided on the specific characters who will make up society, but Ravennin's big sister will probably be a voice of reassurance and wisdom, as well as an example of motherhood, and there will be an arrogant bossy conservative alpha male relative or two who will criticize Attranath and/or Ravennin and try to make them be 'normal'.

Hey I finished the chapter outline for Act I! :)

Tentative Chapter Outline
The name in parentheses indicates whose pov the chapter is from.

Act I

Chapter 1 (Merru) – Merru's soul has been put into a construct's body. Merru thinks, WTF, dragons?!?, decides not to panic, studies his new body and the dragons' language, theorizes about why the dragons are treating him the way they are and what they plan to do with him, and is generally worried and frustrated by his lack of knowledge and ability to control the situation like he usually does.

Chapter 2 (Lieann) – For a total flip of perspective, Lieann is a sophisticated, intelligent dragon in some sort of complex social situation, perhaps a party held for dragon nobility. Lieann sees Ravennin, analyzes him, and decides to seduce him.

Chapter 3 (Merru) – Merru and Attranath are assigned to each other, and go through some initial training exercise. Merru learns some dragon words, to the dragons' surprise.

Chapter 4 (Attranath) – Attranath is a junior member of the group, trying to follow orders but uncomfortable with ordering Merru around. He is torn between the other more dominant alpha males' (possibly including Attranath's older brother) suggestions about what he should do and Merru's displeased reactions when Attranath follows these suggestions.

Chapter 5 (Lieann) – Lieann successfully seduces Ravennin and they screw.

Chapter 6 (Ravennin) – The morning after. Ravennin thinks about how badly sleeping with a beta male combines with his own problems and goals, but his need for approval and affection is stronger and he guardedly, without being willing to talk about it, indicates that he's going to keep sleeping with Lieann. (Lieann is astonished by this but plays it cool and cautiously takes as much as Ravennin is willing to give him.)

Chapter 7 (Merru) – Merru figures out how to pick the lock on his cage, goes exploring, and has the odd experience of being petted. Attranath finds him and panics, trying to get Merru to get back in his cage ASAP. Merru objects, but after Attranath pleads a bit Merru gives in and grumblingly cooperates.

Chapter 8 (Attranath) – Attranath and Merru get where they're supposed to be without getting in trouble (just barely) but Attranath feels a bit guilty. Attranath is given a book with tips on how to train parrot constructs (which they erroneously think Merru is). (Another interaction between Attra and Merru to build their relationship.)

Chapter 9 (Lieann) – Lieann finds out about Ravennin's dream of being a Dominion and makes plans. Ravennin and Lieann argue because Lieann is not submissive enough and Ravennin not intelligent/brave enough, followed by good make-up sex.

Chapter 10 (Ravennin) – Ravennin is fairly content because he won the argument and got laid. He is in a contemplative mood and realizes he is grateful to Lieann because he's not a virgin any more, and thus doesn't have to lie about his experience and be embarrassed because he has to lie. Ravennin's big sister figures out Ravennin has a lover (but not who it is) and talks to him about it; Ravennin makes her promise not to tell anyone because their father would not approve.

Chapter 11 (Merru) – Merru locks Attranath in his cage, Attranath panics and breaks down sobbing, Merru is alarmed and opens the cage as fast as he can and hugs Attranath. Merru has decided that Attranath needs and deserved his sympathy and help, and tries to make it up to Attranath by showing how intelligent he is and how excellently he can carry out construct tasks. When Attranath puts Merru back in his cage he doesn't lock the door.

Chapter 12 (Attranath) – Merru grooms Attranath, which warms Attranath's heart despite teasing from the other alpha males. Attranath starts thinking of Merru as a person.

Chapter 13 (Lieann) – Ravennin gives Lieann a totem cape, which is initially misconstrued because Lieann has no interest in hunting and is startled to receive a bloody animal skin. Then he realizes what it means, but it's too late, Ravennin's feelings have already been hurt and he storms off. However, Lieann sends the skin off to the tailor's to be made into a cape and plans how to apologize. He is less cold-hearted to Ravennin now that he realizes Ravennin has feelings too.

Chapter 14 (Ravennin) – Lieann apologizes to Ravennin and asks Ravennin to put the finished totem cape on his shoulders; this mostly mollifies Ravennin although he still feels like Lieann doesn't really understand him or value the same things he does. Some member of Ravennin's father's political faction starts to be suspicious/critical of Ravennin and make him doubt himself more and worry that his relationship with Lieann will be discovered.

Chapter 15 (Merru) – Merru discovers beta males and that he is attracted to them and that they (or at least this particular one) will have sex with him. Merru and Attranath are best friends now, and Merru is alarmed and depressed to find out that Attranath thinks Merru should stay as far away as possible from beta males.

Chapter 16 (Attranath) – Now that Merru thinks of dragons as people and potential mates, he doesn't like sleeping in the construct area, so he invites himself into Attranath's nest. Merru mentions that he thinks of Attranath like a brother, so Attranath thinks for the first time about the possibility of being brothermates with Merru. Attranath, now perceiving Merru as his leader, is attracted to him. Chastely sharing a nest with Merru is making him insane. So Attranath masturbates in the shower and can't help moaning Merru's name, much to his embarrassment.

Chapter 17 (Lieann) – Ravennin attempts to avoid Lieann. Lieann, annoyed and a bit hurt, seeks him out.

Chapter 18 (Ravennin) – The riskiness of Lieann's plan and the fact that it reveals Lieann's intention to marry Ravennin, makes Ravennin panic and refuse to participate. Lieann, irked that he came up with a great plan to give Ravennin his dream but Ravennin doesn't care, argues, and it escalates into a shouting match. Ravennin says he would never marry Lieann. Lieann calls him a coward and tells him not to come back (without a proposal in hand?). They break up.

Chapter 19 (Merru) – Merru notices Attranath's crush and seduces him. Merru's crest is dyed black so he looks like a real alpha male so he and Attranath can get handfasted without any trouble. And they do get handfasted. And have a nice, sweet sex scene.

Chapter 20 (Attranath) – Merru and Attranath narrowly avoid being caught in bed together when a messenger pounds on Attranath's door to wake him up. Political turmoil is brewing (caused by Lieann?) and Attranath has been suddenly promoted (because thanks to Merru's help his training scores were sky high!) and put in charge of a group of dragons. He panics and insists that Merru take command instead, which works because the new dragons don't know Merru or Attranath and Merru's crest is still conveniently dyed black. So they switch roles. (One of the new dragons in the group is Ravennin?)

Act II

Chapter 21 (Ravennin) – Ravennin, bereft of Lieann's approval and affection, is now more desperate than ever to do things the 'proper' way and gain social approval. Having no friends, he is grateful when Attranath is friendly to him, and astonished to find himself getting along well with another alpha male. He suddenly has hope that he really can take Attranath as a submate and be a normal dominion... if he can just ignore this cursed impulse to pounce on Attranath and fuck him silly. (He doesn't know that Attranath already has a submate.)

Chapter 22 (Merru) – Merru has observed that Attranath likes Ravennin and extorted a confession of attraction from an embarrassed Attranath. Commander Merru has an interview with Ravennin where he tries to figure out if Ravennin would react violently to the suggestion that he sleep with another alpha male. Merru makes Ravennin a sub-commander and assigns Attranath to help him.

Well... so far so good, as it is said...

But there isn't much in this that gets to solving society's misconceptions about homosexuality. Yet.

And still, it sounds like you DO have a good idea of where all this is going. It really sounds promising though. So keep going, and let me know when you get a draft of your second and third parts. I am dying to learn what is happening.

Well, the first step towards solving society's misconceptions about homosexuality is to solve the primary characters' misconceptions about homosexuality, and that does mostly happen in act I.

You don't have any comments on the particular chapters outlined or there arrangement? Something about the timing bothers me - 12 seems to not have enough content, while 18 and 19 try to do too much too fast...

I'm losing track of what I've already said in my posts here. X_x Did I already mention the idea that maybe each soulbreed of dragons has a particular type of magic which matches their personality? This might be interesting, because if Merru has a new soulbreed he might then have a new kind of magic. But, would giving him a new kind of magic to learn how to use clutter the story or convey the wrong moral?

Dunno what the moral should be, so it's hard to tell. But from where I stand, the obvious meaning would be "don't stand set in your ways. Try to innovate and evolve to higher degrees of intelligence" or something equally pompous.

If you were intending to have a moral about sexuality, it IS being done wrong, though.

And if you were indeed planning to have your story say something about both, then... I am lost too.

sorry, I can't help any further, I lack sleep.

Well, I hope you get some sleep then. :)

I wa intending the moral to be that different things are right for different people, everyone should figure out what will make them happy and pursue it, ignoring preconceptions and social censure. Also, I want to suggest that an important, maybe essential ingredient for happiness is belonging to a family of people who love you for yourself, and talk about how love has the varius components of friendship, passion, and loyalty/commitment.

As for sexuality, the only thing I really have to say about the matter is that considering some sexual orientations or activities 'sinful' is stupid, which goes back to what I said above about different things being right for different people. People should not say a sexual orientation or activity is wrong just because it happens to not be right for them.