Apologies, I haven't been able to access this forum for 2 days because the cookies on my computer were screwed up and I didn't realize this, thought the site was still down...

Here's what I was trying to post 2 days ago:

Well, the idea of true names just doesn't catch my imagination. The type of magic I like best is the kind based on willpower and visualization, maybe because that kind is the most similar to dreaming and wishing subconscious desires into existence. I also like sympathetic magic, e.g. where you make a stone egg and do some rituals with it as a charm to encourage conceiving a real egg. And I like biological magic, where you have people who have genetic special abilities, like being a shapeshifter or being psychic.

I do not like any kind of magic that requires the user to study and be real precise with incantations or ingredients of a ritual, because I think the ritual actions are just there to focus the person's mind, the physical details of them have nothing to do with the magic. And since I don't like the idea of gods the dragons' mythology doesn't have the concept of prayer - magic is more like... cooking, maybe. Rituals are like recipes passed down from your parents, but it's normal to substitute ingredients and mix-and-match ritual elements to try to accomplish whatever magical purpose you have in mind; the idea is that the ingredients have sympathy with the universe, so doing a ritual with the ingredients can cause the universe to change sympathetically.

For the magic about creating an egg, I was thinking, the culture already has this tradition of using little white stone eggs as fertility charm jewelry, maybe the nesting room creating ritual could use a lifesize stone egg which Attranath could accidentally transform into a real egg. Although, that would raise the question, if this is a real egg, why is Merru a construct instead of a real dragon...

See this thread in the lounge where I describe the metaphysics system I have been working on.

It in fact raises ANOTHER question, which is: What kind of sympathetic ritual can you perform to create a construcvt that will host a HUMAN soul, if both races completely ignore each others? Perform it with something like a dreamcatcher? I think it would be a little far-fetched...

But, on the other hand, if you prefer something more "real-time" and inventive, I can't think of anything better...

So maybe Merru, being unable to understand why the egg charm he has to get has to be in stone, gets a real egg instead, and that is the reason why the spell turns the egg charm into a real live egg, instead of transforming it into a safe chamber or something? Would that be too far fetched as an explanation? Maybe you could explain that, originally, the reproduction would happen this way, and only through the mixing of animal genes in their own, the dragons have discovered genres and sexuality, and that the safe chamber ritual was really the result of an experiment with a fake egg? It could explain quite a lot, without explaining everything, and leaving some ground for future development? Like maybe some other ritual you will evoke in your story could also be the result of a modification of the original one?

Ooh, inspiration!!! The reason dragons are having increasing problems with infertility is that their species in in a transitionary phase, trying to evolve to having accidental pregnancy be impossible, instead conception always has to be a deliberate choice!

interesting one. I don't know where or if it can happen in real life, for biological reasons (but once again, if there is magic around, maybe biology can go and have a beer for a while...) but it sounds nice...

Hmm... so if the dragon species is evolving that conception must be intentional, and males and females become equal and interchangeable in the process of conception as magical methods replace biological methods, and if all evolution is supposed to be happening to make the dragons get closer to being godlike... why would these two particular changes be important steps in that evolution? What does this say about the nature of that evolution?

I suppose it means that it means that, for quite a while, the dragons have been using magic to sustain themselves, and have been altered by it. Maybe the reason of the decline in birthrate is the very USE of magic on a daily basis. Maybe "nowadays", most of what they do, they do through magic. In fact, magic has taken over the natural cycles and altered biology.

Which means that, unvoluntarily, those four young ones have hit the landmark, by doing something so utterly beyond preconceptions, and so close to their "real" nature, that they have succeeded in taking a step forward, long before any of the rest of the dragons have realized there was a path there.

Of course, this is a nice explanation once you know what has been happening. But in the eye of the storm they will undergo, it will mean nothing, apart from that they destroyed the established order, and should be destroyed, along with their " disguting created thing". Mentalities don't change overnight. Even in a magic saturated specie as dragons.

This implies that whatever they achieve, they are doomed to failure. And it fails completely to satisfy your needs and desires. Maybe we can cut the lifelong changes and say they are accepted right away?

Maybe the one who complains about such a state of things is the one who's got an hear in the most powerful council, and decides to prove their false pretenses by putting them in trial before the very council, and forcing them to perform the ritual they claim they have accomplished, in order to prove they are the ones who stole the egg that has gone missing? And asked to do it another time, they actually lay a second egg through magic? This being seen as extremely curious is taken with extreme care, and they are secluded from the rest of the trial for a while, until the eggs hatch, are seen viable, and the "parents" are recognized as saviors of the dragons race?

But this implies some changes in your story.

For a start, the rythm is changed, because the first part must end with the first egg being laid, the second part starts with the group being found out, but ends with the second egg being laid, and the third part, where the whole world accepts them as a parental group, ends when the second egg hatches.

So this means that your premise was wrong, because your story has two different goals. From the beginning to end of part one, the main goal is to become a valid family, and then, this very goal is blended into surviving the trial. You can add as much sex, love, romance and betrayal as you want, but in the end, this is what it should look like, if you decide to go that route.

Only my opinion there, of course...

I don't think that magically creating an egg would be seen as destroying the established order - they didn't make a monster, they made a baby. If there's one thing dragons society would never want to destroy, it's a baby. Everybody who's been having problems with infertility will beg to be taught the spell and be grateful the characters discovered/created it. There will be a minor baby boom but society and the eonomy won't collapse or anything. I don't have to show a sceond egg hatching, I could show some barren neighboring clan bursting with hope, preparing to do the ritual, and since the readers already know it will work I don't have to show it happening, I can just let them imagine that this is the start of a beautiful future. :)

I at one point had considered having a trial in the plot (although I was originally thinking it would be in act II, to have Ravennin disinherited for sleeping with Attranath), but I think it wouldn't fit - the story is about instinct, magic, love, and understanding, which is in a totally different realm from law and judgement. Plus a trial would be a different type of action from the rest of the book, which would make it feel out of place I think. And structurally, I don't think it's necessary in act 3 - the fact that the nesting room creation ritual works even though performed by a male, and not only works but works so well they get an egg out of the process, serves the function of the magic/evolutionary instinct judging them and stamping them with its seal of approval, it would be redundant to go through the process again with a lower authority (jury of mortal dragons).

In fact, I did not think of it as showing the moral validity of it before a jury of peers, I thought of it as saving their necks. But anyway.

I thought in fact that the very fact of four males showing with an egg, even if they pretended it hapened through magic would be highly suspicious, which is why I thought of someone immediately being jealous or having reasons to have them thrown out, and using the trick of having them perform it again in order to prove his case. Only they really did it, and can do it again, at will. Which puts the jealous at odds, because he not only made false pretenses against them, but against them who incidently happen to be the saviors of Dragonkind, putting him in an extremely uncomfortable seat.

But the rest can happen just your way.

So... The climax of the book is the discovery/invention of a magical method or reproduction to replace the failing and obsolete biological method of reproduction. Attranath is the key player, and the key ability which enables him to create the spell is his true and deep love for his other family members. Why is that? What does love (in the sense of truly respecting and liking someone else) have to do with fertility? Why (in this fantasy universe) should love be a necessary prerequisite for conceiving a child, what does that imply about the philosophy of this universe?