Quote: Original post by Fournicolas
So creating dragons through construct is a usual way of doing it? Or at least has it already been done? There are many more? What is their place in society? Pets? WEEIIIIIRD!!!


And, as I said, if you can figure out what the consequences are, be they emotional or other, you can also figure out what the actions that triggered them are.

good luck!!

Constructs are definitely not dragons - they are the magical equivalent of androids. There are more - maybe one for every 6 dragons. They are treated like working animals who can do a wider variety of tasks because they have hands. They fill the roles of guard and hunting dogs, pack animals, and the more intelligent ones can do do simple serving tasks like delivering messages, fetching desired objects, carrying heavy bags, boxes, and buckets, working as field hands, and other unskilled labor. Presumably some are also trained to be living sex dolls; this would be more common for female constructs than male constructs like Merru.

Constructs can't reproduce so each one has to be sculpted and ensouled, making them fairly expensive to create - this is why there aren't more of them, and they are also expensive in that they must be fed and it takes time to train them, and they tend to run away and get in trouble when not supervised, just like you would expect animals to. Because of their expense and limited usefulness constructs are owned mostly by the military and large clans which need an unskilled labor pool for their factories, forests, and kitchens; and a few constructs are personal pets owned by nobles.


And yeah, I'm trying to work backwards from effects to causes; it's tough though, because there are so many possibilities.

Well, I'm not sureif this is progress or not - do you think this presents the story more in terms of actions and events, or is just a less detailed version of my last attempt?


Act I

Plot Strand A
Movement 1 – Merru and Attranath are at odds with Attranath as Merru's master, but then become good friends with Merru as Attranath's leader.
Movement 2 – They sleep together and decide to become brothermates but not lovers.

Plot Strand B
Movement 1 – Lieann seduces Ravennin and they become secret lovers
Movement 2 – Their relationship gets more and more dysfunctional and they break up.

Act II

Plot Strand A
Movement 1 – Lieann obtains Merru; Merru tries to resist, then give into, his attraction to Lieann and they sleep together.
Movement 2 – Lieann doubts that Merru could truly like him, and must be convinced of Merru's sincerity.

Plot Strand B
Movement 1 – Attranath and Ravennin work together, become lovers, and are stressed because they are with the wrong political faction.
Movement 2 – They come under suspicion, Ravennin chooses Attranath over the political faction, Ravennin is disinherited, and they rejoin Merru and Lieann.

Act III

Unified Plot
Movement 1 – As a team, the characters form a plan to acquire a territory and become an official clan and try to carry out this plan, but society resists.
Movement 2 – Creating an egg and a nesting room makes them a real family/clan, and they make society change from threatened to accepting.

Sounds good!!

But, of course, I have a few things to say about it...

"Merru and Attranath are at odds with Attranath as Merru's master, but then become good friends with Merru as Attranath's leader."
Would this mean that both of them are having difficulties accepting their respective positions? Why would this be? Because of their physical attraction? Sounds curious. I don't even know if there exists a possibility of this happening. If constructs can be used as sex puppets, then an owner should not feel particularly "at odds" by feeling that he should use it so, unless, of course that a male sex puppet is not encouraged. I am not taking into account the fact that both are male, of course, and that they are feeling at odds with the society at large with being homosexual. Feeling at odds means that there is probably something that they are doing and that they shouldn't.

If it is only about homosexuality, then they are not having trouble with their physical relation. And if they are having trouble with accepting their feelings towards each others (which I would find strange, in a Galatea/Pygmalion context)
then there is a chance that by simply freeing Attranath from slavery, or whatever term you choose to use, then it will simplify their relation. Unless, of course, Merru tok a part in the "creation" of the body, or in the calling of a soul to kinhabit it, and made an unvoluntary, or maybe even better, voluntary, mistake by calling in a soul which would be attracted to him, which would be a self-destructive behavior. But from what I gather, there isn't much in what is "out there" for him anyway, despite his rich family background. I think he was the one to have an older brother take him out too. Or was that lieann? Damn, it would all be so much more simple if I could remember all the details...


"Movement 2 – They come under suspicion, Ravennin chooses Attranath over the political faction, Ravennin is disinherited, and they rejoin Merru and Lieann."

Ok, this is going a little fast for me, so please forgive me for my slowness of mind. I can bite that Ravennin and Attranath are being eyed down by their formation or group. no problem there. But it seems that they are also eyed or spied on by the rest of the world, watching their trial with interest? There should be an explanation there. It can't just drop out of the sky, just like that. The disinheritance should also be explained, as I feel it goes a little against the tide of events. If Ravennin is trying desperately to create a new clan, it is most probably because he won't be the one inheriting the clan. So unless there is property NOT going along with the clan, there is nothing he would have inherited anyway, right or wrong?

And third and last problem with this sequence, What is the reason for them both to gang up with Merru and Lieann, apart from their past relationships with them, which, if I recall, both crashed down in flames? They have been thrown out of their respective groups, and have failed to grow something strong with them in the past. So what is the reason for them to go back to them and try again? Surely not love, for if it was still there, they wouldn't have parted in the first place. It is probable that it is not trust either, because Ravennin now HAS trust and self-confidence, through Attranath, which is why he chose to get out of his political faction. Could it be that it is Lieann who, once again, plots everything and tries to join, or rather form, a soon-to-be functional group? In which case, it would be better suited if the fact was stated the other way around as "Merru and Liean join them".



As for the third act, I think I would add a little more pathos in this, by doing it as a "do-or-die" part. From now on, their very existence is menaced by the rest of the society, because of both their homosexuality, their strang behavior towards "usable" construct, and their denial of defeat, which would be honorable behavior. Their only chance of surviving, simply, would be to hatch an eg. But since it can't be done through normal means, then it must be through magic. Tey ar ethen striving to do, and to create the magic room. Then they must hide it. Or better. I think it would be a greater move to hide it... in the middle of nowhere in particular! Since this "room" is simply an enclosed space, I suppose it can be enclosed by magic, which would shield them from sight and smell, and would probably dampen sounds too. A sort of alternate space within the normal one. The very obvious way of finding a room in a forest would be to find a cave, or a hollow trunk. Let them do that where no one will search them, like on the beach of a pond, or something. Make them act in an obviously irrational way, dragon-wise, but survivalist-wise it would be sound. Do what you're not supposed to, like.

So what do you think of my remarks?

Quote: Original post by Fournicolas
Sounds good!!

But, of course, I have a few things to say about it...

"Merru and Attranath are at odds with Attranath as Merru's master, but then become good friends with Merru as Attranath's leader."
Would this mean that both of them are having difficulties accepting their respective positions? Why would this be? Because of their physical attraction? Sounds curious. I don't even know if there exists a possibility of this happening. If constructs can be used as sex puppets, then an owner should not feel particularly "at odds" by feeling that he should use it so, unless, of course that a male sex puppet is not encouraged. I am not taking into account the fact that both are male, of course, and that they are feeling at odds with the society at large with being homosexual. Feeling at odds means that there is probably something that they are doing and that they shouldn't.

They aren't having sex until movement 2. In movement 1 they are both uncomfortable with their respective positions because Attranath is a submissive who feels unnatural trying to order someone else around, even a dog, and Merru doesn't like being ordered around, he wants to be treated as an equal and asked politely.

Quote:
"Movement 2 – They come under suspicion, Ravennin chooses Attranath over the political faction, Ravennin is disinherited, and they rejoin Merru and Lieann."

Ok, this is going a little fast for me, so please forgive me for my slowness of mind. I can bite that Ravennin and Attranath are being eyed down by their formation or group. no problem there. But it seems that they are also eyed or spied on by the rest of the world, watching their trial with interest? There should be an explanation there. It can't just drop out of the sky, just like that. The disinheritance should also be explained, as I feel it goes a little against the tide of events. If Ravennin is trying desperately to create a new clan, it is most probably because he won't be the one inheriting the clan. So unless there is property NOT going along with the clan, there is nothing he would have inherited anyway, right or wrong?

It is only Ravennin's father's faction that is always suspicious of Ravennin. This is because Ravennin's father fears and is embarrassed by Ravennin. So Ravennin's father has been looking for the chance to cast Ravennin out of the clan for a long time. You can be disinherited even if you're not the direct heir.

Quote:
And third and last problem with this sequence, What is the reason for them both to gang up with Merru and Lieann, apart from their past relationships with them, which, if I recall, both crashed down in flames?

Eh? No, Merru and Attranath have a great relationship, they're like blood brothers. And Ravennin and Lieann broke up, but Lieann is the only friend Ravennin's ever had except for his sister, and thus the only place Ravennin could go for help. Ravennin has been thrown out of his father's group, so it makes sense for him to switch sides, and conveniently Lieann is on the other side. Lieann has not been thrown out of anything - he and his faction have captured Merru, theus they are both with Lieann's faction when Ravennin and Attranath show up asking for sanctuary. I can see why this is confusing though - I haven't figured it out fully myself, and what I had figured out, I hadn't explained to you yet.


As for pathos, well, don't you think it would be kind of uneven to have people's lives suddenly be in danger in act 3 when for the first two acts it's the danger of scandal that everyone has been afraid of? And since I don't want to write about anyone trying to kill anyone else, how would their lives be in danger? I agree that hatching the egg must be the answer to the threat against them... but how and why would an egg solve anything?

Maybe the reason why their lives are in danger is because there is a real need to belong to a family clan? Maybe the outcasts, not belonging to any group, cannot find their means of subsistance outside of it, partly because you need to be able to go hunting while not being backed up and finding your own cave not inhabited by someone else, so having friends is definitely the easiest way of doing it, but you simply don't make friends with outcasts as a rule. Now again, if they are transgressing the taboos and making friends with outcasts from the start, they might already better their chances of surviving, as a group and as individuals.

But maybe hatching an egg is something that can only happe in a group. Maybe you should devise a way of having the members of the group relaying one another on heating/nesting it, in order to offer the best chances of group survival. And since one of them knew enough of magic to magically create an egg, then maybe he can also magically heat it? This would make things a lot simpler for each member of the group could participate in sustaining the others? Maybe the one supposed to maintain the magic room is the only one not to go hunting and protecting?

Maybe this is what a family is, at the core, and why in the end, they cannot be parted? because they are functional and functioning?

I agree that it should be the functionality of their family that maes them safe from being separated. I still don't know exactly how their functionality as a family protects them though. Possibly it should have something to do with their territory being magically tuned to their essence. Would it be too easy if their territory had a magical barrier against the entry of anyone hostile to the family or the egg?



Alright, what do you make of this attempt at an outline of events for the first chunk of the novel?


Plot Strand A, Movement 1 – Merru's high opinion of himself and Attranath's submissiveness put them at odds when Attranath is assigned to be Merru's master. Attranath's respect for Merru's intelligence and Merru's empathy for Attranath's convince them to treat each other as equals instead, which allows them to become good friends.

- Merru is dropped into the dragons' world, and the Dragons treat him like a dog.

- Attranath is a teenager who does what everybody tells him to do, because he wants to make everyone happy. But some tasks or roles, such as giving orders, make Attranath uncomfortable. So he is torn when Merru is assigned to him to train and command. Merru does not like the way dominant alpha males arrogantly order him around; his resistance makes Attranath crumble and beg Merru to cooperate; this flatters Merru and makes him pity Attranath, so Merru cooperates.

- Being locked in a cage offends Merru's dignity and is terribly boring, so Merru studies the methods and possible consequences of escaping. He learns to take advantage of being considered a dog to pursue pleasures (chocolate chip cookies, playing in the playroom, drawing supplies) and escape punishments (for getting out of his cage, wandering around where he's not supposed to be, and stealing things he want).

- Attranath finds that treating Merru as an equal and asking him nicely to do things is both more comfortable and more effective, but the dominant alpha males tease him about it and suggest that it's bad for Merru to no discipline him. So Attranath makes another attempt at strictly following the rules with Merru. Merru feels betrayed and angry about this reversal in Attranath's attitude, and determines to teach Attranath what it feels like to be in his position by sneakily locking Attranath in his cage. But when Attranath finds himself locked in the cage he has a panic attack imagining how humiliating it will be when the other alpha males find him. He falls to his knees and bursts into tears. Merru, alarmed, hurriedly unlocks the door and grabs Attranath into a hug, soothing him. This is the point at which Merru decides to trade the freedom of being a construct who can't be held responsible for anything for the responsibility of being Attranath's best friend. The two become inseparable, and Attranath never tries to force Merru to do anything again – rather than putting Merru back in the cage, Merru starts sleeping chastely cuddled in Attranath's nest with him.

- Merru has adjusted to seeing dragons as people rather than aliens, and is starting to feel sexually frustrated. Conveniently, he discovers the existence of beta males and that they will have sex with him (or at least one was willing to, so other may be also).

- Unfortunately he finds out shortly afterward that there is a huge amount of prejudice against beta males and it's unheard of for an alpha male to sleep with one. Merru worries about the danger to Attranath's reputation and the danger of losing Attranath's friendship if Merru pursues sleeping with beta males. But Merru is still lonely, and being a popular playboy is an important part of his human identity that he wants to reclaim.

- Attranath is disturbed to realize that he likes cuddling with Merru a lot and doesn't want to give it up. Then an event occurs which makes him suddenly see Merru as a person rather than an animal, and not just Attranath's equal but potentially his superior. Attranath's craving for affection emerges as full-blown attraction to Merru, despite Attranath's denial. Possibly Attranath has a memory or dream of a past event relevant to homosexuality.

Indeed, I think that the "magical barrier into fairyland kingdom" is a tinsy bit too... sissy, for me. Even though there is supposed ot be no actual fight in your story, I think it would make it better to hint that there MIGHT be, though. A story full of love and compassion in a world full of wild persons acting as animals for a part, and civilized beings for the other should be more interesting than a story about people living in peace for ever. So make it, like, the magic room is like a nest, with incubating heat, but this heat must be taken from the adults of the group. It does not protect PER SE, but allows the adults of the group to have ful activity while acting as a nanny or a nurse, nurturing the eggs and heating them. So wile there isn't actually anybody around, the adults can be outside this room, and fight the intruder. Better? I don't think this is very convincing, but honestly, I can't come up with many more ideas about that, I think I have depleted my stock of plausible explanations about "apparently unrelated events"...

As for Merru's position in society, I think I just spotted something odd. Sure he can be a construct, but why would the construct have a social value higher than a Beta male? After all, he doesn't actually belong to the society? he is just a... thing, right? Not exactly an animal, nor a dragon, he is just the closer and more convenient form of a walking pair of tweezers, right? So why would ANYONE care about what he is doing, or how he is acting, in any way more interested than towards a pet? He just shouldn't get ANY consideration from the rest of the dragons, and the despise should be left entirely on Attranath, instead of them sharing it. But on the other hand, Merru, as a human, should know the value of friendship, and modify his behavior accordingly to HIS own values, not the one imposed onto him by Draconic society. So he should just volunteer a friendhsip, from the start, or at least try to offer it, even though it won't be successful.

And last, I think I've just realized that there would be a problem in your very WRITING. You told me that you wanted to base your story on a human becoming a Dragon, right? Well, then, in my opinion, the best way to make the reader discover the dragons' world at the same pace as your character is to have an INNER POV Narrator, which would be Merru. Which leaves you with TWO possibilities to describe the events that englobe other characters and situations in which he couldn't have taken a part:
EITHER you progress with flashbacks explaining some facts of the story in which Merru won't be acting, but listening to an account of what had happened, and keep your first person narrator with limited knowledge,
OR you use the old trick of tale being told through Merru's knowledge of the story, in his old days, after collecting information on what had happened in this precise part of history. Maybe making it a sort of discourse or course, simply, adressing youths eager to learn how the Change had occured, or something.

There you go, have fun!

Quote: Original post by Fournicolas
As for Merru's position in society, I think I just spotted something odd. Sure he can be a construct, but why would the construct have a social value higher than a Beta male? After all, he doesn't actually belong to the society? he is just a... thing, right? Not exactly an animal, nor a dragon, he is just the closer and more convenient form of a walking pair of tweezers, right? So why would ANYONE care about what he is doing, or how he is acting, in any way more interested than towards a pet? He just shouldn't get ANY consideration from the rest of the dragons, and the despise should be left entirely on Attranath, instead of them sharing it. But on the other hand, Merru, as a human, should know the value of friendship, and modify his behavior accordingly to HIS own values, not the one imposed onto him by Draconic society. So he should just volunteer a friendhsip, from the start, or at least try to offer it, even though it won't be successful.

Merru's whole 'quest' in part one of the story is to learn to be able to speak dragon and act like a dragon well enought to pass as one and be treated like a person instead of an animal. Attranath is the first one he convinces to think of him as a person because Attranath 1) is the dragon he has spends the most time with, 2) is actually less intelligent than Merru, and 3) as a submissive he is prone to see other alphas, especially ones larger than him like Merru is, as superior to himself.

Quote: And last, I think I've just realized that there would be a problem in your very WRITING. You told me that you wanted to base your story on a human becoming a Dragon, right? Well, then, in my opinion, the best way to make the reader discover the dragons' world at the same pace as your character is to have an INNER POV Narrator, which would be Merru. Which leaves you with TWO possibilities to describe the events that englobe other characters and situations in which he couldn't have taken a part:
EITHER you progress with flashbacks explaining some facts of the story in which Merru won't be acting, but listening to an account of what had happened, and keep your first person narrator with limited knowledge,
OR you use the old trick of tale being told through Merru's knowledge of the story, in his old days, after collecting information on what had happened in this precise part of history. Maybe making it a sort of discourse or course, simply, adressing youths eager to learn how the Change had occured, or something.

Um, I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. The story is going to be told in rotating 1st person pov shared between the 4 main characters - this will give me both Merru's outsider's perspective and the different perspectives of the different classes and genders the three dragons belong to.

FOUR rotating internal POV? Gosh! You must be insane!!

No sorry, I coudn't help it. But this is one hell of an exercise, you're heading to!! Good luck!

*blink* I don't think it will be particularly difficult. My first childish attempt at a novel, written 10 years ago, had at least 4 viewpoint characters (don't remember exactly how many). You just tell each scene from whoever's perspective makes it the most interesting - it's an easy and natural way to write something.