I just finished writing up a section about this in the doc. I will upload it later this week.

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

I suppose this is just a matter of terminology but not all crimes are evil, and not all evil is criminal.

quote: Original post by Anonymous poster
Whenever you see an NPC you are looking at a cover up. Any place an NPC is used a more elegant and engaging solution could have been used, but the designers took the easy way out.

The problem is that NPCs are often a necessary evil.

Lets say you create a world wherin all occupations are open to the player (like my current project).

That is all well and good, but what happens when the PC tavern master decides to log off? Do we instantly lose the use of the tavern?

NPC storeowners are needed to act as stopgaps, so that there is always someone there to ''mind the store''. Additionally, unless your world has a fairly decent player-base online at any one time, without NPC characters wandering around, the world seems very empty.

One good system I saw on a MUD, was where there was absolutely no difference between the NPCs in town and the ''monsters'' you went out to kill. Both could be conversed with, to a limited extent, and each could be found in their own settlements, with their own guards around to keep a wary eye on meandering adventurers.

quote: Original post by Anonymous poster
MMORPGs aren''t related to single player RPGs. They are a new genre, or rather they should be.

I couldn''t agree more.

quote: Original post by Lynck

One thing I have noticed alot on Online Games is, if you killed a character that was good, you could get arrested, go to court, possibly get sentenced to jail. A very common aspect in games to keep PKing from getting out of hand. What about the townspeople? I killed a peasant in an online game, nothing happened. Nobody tried to arrest me. If you want games to be role played alot, you gotta have the same consequences for doing stuff to NPCs like if you do with PCs. And, a note which is off-topic, I think NPCs have a lot more stuff to do than to stand next to Hallabolla Restaurant saying "Welcome! I believe the chicken here is excellent!" Well, anyone feel the same as I do about these two subjectS?

I'm curious... which Online Game are you playing? I don't know of any (of the big three, UO, EQ, AC) that allow you to kill (good) NPCs in town.


--- AFTER EDIT ---
Yes, I do agree that NPCs should do more than the average tree.
In our design, we are incorporating NPCs with memories. Not only will they remember you but, they will form opinions about you... this is what we have planned.
I really think that NPCs in MMPOGs should be part of the story. They should play a big part in your decissions and your actions.

I do think that most designers and programmers feel overwhelmed at the thought of creating an NPC that is more than just a babling idiot Myself and our team do not.

Edited by - Dak Lozar on November 6, 2000 10:10:56 AM

quote: Original post by dwarfsoft
Sorry Iron, but your post just reaked of Wav . I seriously thought it was him...

Urgghhh??? Have I gained a reputation? Or were you talking about a different Wav?

quote:

Sure Wav, but in MMO NOBODY IS A PERSON... Every last damn one of the players turns into a homicidal maniac... And it isn''t like anybody is intending on giving those NPC''s reasonable AI, so they wont even notice that they are dying... Thats my opinion anyway. In MMO I wouldn''t even class that superficial pixelated combination as an NPC... It just isn''t right to do that...

Couldn''t agree more!

Fascinating fact #1005: Serial killers and severely autistic people relate to human beings as objects. What the heck does this have to do with NPCs? Well, in a virtual world players are very close to being autistic. No touch, smell, or taste, and barely adequate sight and sound. When you have any game that rewards killing exclusively, and doesn''t have enough depth to simulate other methods of human contact, you get players acting like serial killers.

BTW, here''s an interesting thought. Few (I hope, anyway) on this board could pick up a gun and go kill a complete stranger. Psychologically, there''s a whole host of inhibiting mechanisms, a conscience cheif among them.

What if we simulated a conscience in our RPGs???? Then, you''d have to __WORK__ to kill someone. It would get easier with time, and you could erode your own conscience by committing greater and greater evil acts. Things like brainwashing, religion, and propaganda would make it easier to kill strangers... but the more innocent and powerless, the harder it would be...

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

that is a sick, twisted idea, Wavinator... i love it


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IUnknown *pUnkOuter

"Try the best you can
try the best you can
the best you can is good enough"
--Radiohead

Edited by - pUnkOuter on November 6, 2000 5:21:55 PM

Me too... any ideas as to how you would implement such a thing?

-Ironblayde
 Aeon Software

The following sentence is true.
The preceding sentence is false.

"That is all well and good, but what happens when the PC tavern master decides to log off? Do we instantly lose the use of the tavern?"

is the tavern really needed? Are any buildings needed? I would have some buildings, to give players places to gather at, perhaps a nice open air tower that people can stand around on. Other than as focal points buildings have no real use.

>> Other than as focal points buildings have no real use. >>

I assume you are the same anon poster that wanted NPCs to be gone from the MMRGPs too. I do not agree with that statement or the one quoted above. If the interaction between people is all that matters, then you have a chatroom, not a game. If NPCs, buildings and other game mechanics are not useful in your game, then it would seem like your game design is flawed.

Personally I think NPCs are great for simulating ''extras''. A model of the real world without cashiers in the stores would seem very odd and unrealistic, but at the same time I imagine that few players would be willing to pay money to play a cashier and spend 6 hours a day behind a virtual cash register. NPCs are similar to backdrops in movies. They do not have to be fully functional to add to the immersion of the game.

Henry

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
is the tavern really needed? Are any buildings needed? I would have some buildings, to give players places to gather at, perhaps a nice open air tower that people can stand around on. Other than as focal points buildings have no real use.

Um, no buildings? Doesn''t sound lik e much of a role-playable experience to me. Buildings provide the setting, the infrastructure to the world. Without a setting, you just have a mindless hack and slash.

A friend of mine recently introduced me to a new term, QRPG. "Quake Role Playing Game" This sounds to me like exactly the kind of game you are talking about - a kill-aton.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
If the interaction between people is all that matters, then you have a chatroom, not a game. If NPCs, buildings and other game mechanics are not useful in your game, then it would seem like your game design is flawed.

Exactly. NPCs, buildings, events, politics etc all serve to drive immersion and a sense of, well, completeness.

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
I imagine that few players would be willing to pay money to play a cashier and spend 6 hours a day behind a virtual cash register. NPCs are similar to backdrops in movies. They do not have to be fully functional to add to the immersion of the game.

Your example is a bit extreme. I, too, doubt that, but, at the same time, there are more than a few people who are willing to play barkeeper/barmaid, or set up their own shops to ply goods to other players that they have collected on their travels. This is quite a common phenomenon.

Once, upon my travels, I came across two players who were trying to save up enough in-game money to build a bording house (inn) which they planned to run between them. They never succeeded because the MUD shut down, but, I believe that if you build the ability in, people will use it, and more than you would think.