I think one of the few reasons that NPC''s are there is so that there is some populace in the game at the least active times. Something for the player to be entertained by. In MMO the NPC''s *should* entertain the player, even by subjecting themselves to death. This doesn''t mean that you can''t work a little side-plot into your game that adds the extra fun of running from the law... I think it could be quite amusing if by doing so, you become outlawed... Which in turn brings you in contact with a rebel band . That way you will have both been entertained and punished (in a way) while experiencing something new at the same time...

As DM said... Reality isn''t the goal, total immersion is.

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

quote: Original post by Dwarfsoft

the NPC's *should* entertain the player, even by subjecting themselves to death

Well! So much for "NPCs are people too!"

-Ironblayde
 Aeon Software

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Edited by - Ironblayde on November 5, 2000 7:16:49 PM

Sure Wav, but in MMO NOBODY IS A PERSON... Every last damn one of the players turns into a homicidal maniac... And it isn't like anybody is intending on giving those NPC's reasonable AI, so they wont even notice that they are dying... Thats my opinion anyway. In MMO I wouldn't even class that superficial pixelated combination as an NPC... It just isn't right to do that... It is like comparing a dog with an amoeba... Actually, single player ones aren't much better... *sigh* Why can't they just evolve?

In single player though... NPC's are People TOO!

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Edited by - dwarfsoft on November 5, 2000 8:36:13 PM

store keepers and guards? What good are they? Nearly everything is found by killing monsters, so you don''t buy stuff from NPCs. You end up selling your extra loot to them. That makes you less likely to sell it to another player, thus cutting the human out of the equation. Down with shopkeepers!

Guards are bad too, find a way to bind players together so that they protect each other, and no not money or XP based. Real bonds of strategic importance to those that make them. Not merely a source of wealth. Whenever you see an NPC you are looking at a cover up. Any place an NPC is used a more elegant and engaging solution could have been used, but the designers took the easy way out. MMORPGs aren''t related to single player RPGs. They are a new genre, or rather they should be.

OK, fair enough. I''m not Wav though.

-Ironblayde
 Aeon Software

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>> First of all, the vast majority of nobles would no kill a peasent for no reason. >>

True, but my point is that the world itself is not very fair and MANY MANY commoners were mistreated by their nobles in one way or another. Beatings, rapes and robberies were common ways to control common people and when there was a war, soldiers were quick to burn down the homes of the enemies'' commoners (and slaughter the people) to deplete the other noble''s resources.

People on this list tend to critizise the simplicity of games where everything is either black or white (where a goblin is always evil and a knight in shining armor is always the good guy). I think it would be only fair to bring this perspective to justice systems in games too. Most of the things we consider crimes today went unpunished in the old days (the crusades, the inquisition, witch processes etc.). Even today the people with money and influence can get away a lot easier than the ''common man'' (OJ Simpson versus the poor people who are put on death row because of inadequate legal representation). Should games reflect these ''injustices'' in the real world or should this aspect of games be simplified to black and white (where the bad guys go to jail and good guys are celebrated)?

>> The faction system is a joke. Nothing less. I''m sure all EQ players would agree with me. On the pvp servers it is even more absurd. >>

Oh, is it? Then I suggest you talk to anyone who play a non-human enchanter on a PvP server. They tend to be very keen on preserving their faction. Personally I spent several days trying to research ways to raise my faction in Erudin so that I could complete the Tashania quest after killing too many erudites in PvP combat. Before finishing that quest it was always a bittersweet sensation to fight an erudite since I knew I would lose out on it in one way or another. So I guess the faction system worked for me.

Faction systems have also been around for a very long time so I am guessing that game designers are having a hard time coming up with new solutions to this problem. The first game with a faction system that I ever played was Mars Saga, Westwood''s first RPG, where hitmen would come after you if you killed too many citizens.

Henry

Anon, i guess you''re right about the shopkeepers. (i hope you read my disclaimer.. i tend to think more like single player games, since that''s all i''ve played)

it doesn''t seem, though, that players should just find everything they need on a corpse they just took the from. (i know i''m not being totally original with these ideas, but i agree with them all the same) "Hmm, i need a new sword, lemme go kill a kobold." Design like that encourages and rewards that type of play. but if there were some kind of consequence for the player''s actions (e.g. guards not being too happy with you if you rob/kill someone in their view), then i think you''ll get more interesting situations, and more entertainment without killing all the damn time.

from the vantage point of the player, they should see no difference in the game between PCs and NPCS (well, theoretically, anyway). NPCs should just more or less take on the roles players tend not to want to play.
i lost my train of thought... i''m not used to such wishy-washy concepts, i''m a programmer, damn it....

------------------------
IUnknown *pUnkOuter

"Try the best you can
try the best you can
the best you can is good enough"
--Radiohead

"Most of the things we consider crimes today went unpunished in the old days (the crusades, the inquisition, witch processes etc.)."

Those were run by governments, how could they possibly be considered crimes? To take the crusades for example no one considered them a crime. I doubt the muslims did either, since they had their own crusades vs Europe. That''s the kind of thing people were into back then.

"Oh, is it? Then I suggest you talk to anyone who play a non-human enchanter on a PvP server. They tend to be very keen on preserving their faction."

That''s what I mean, it is far too easy to lose faction even when you are innocent. If I am a dwarf hanging out in my dwarven town and a weak little elf tries to pk me, what should I do? Correct solution is to run, because if I kill him I lose major faction with the elves. That is completely illogical. Faction is just too hard to acquire, has illogical rules, and well, it could be done a lot better. Of course the whole point is moot, NPCs have no place in MMORPGs

>> Those were run by governments, how could they possibly be considered crimes? To take the crusades for example no one considered them a crime. >>

Well, I think slaughtering populations of whole cities and ethnical cleansing are considered crimes against humanity today. Milosovich persecution of the Kosovans is a modern example of such a crime that was performed by a government yet is still considered a crime by most people and international courts. The crusades would definitely be considered a crime against humanity by modern standards and I did write in my previous post that I was talking about "things we consider crimes today".

>> That''s the kind of thing people were into back then. >>

Exactely, and since most of these atrocities went unpunished in the real world, should people be punished for commiting them in games?

Henry

quote: Original post by Ironblayde

OK, fair enough. I''m not Wav though.

-Ironblayde
 Aeon Software

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Sorry Iron, but your post just reaked of Wav . I seriously thought it was him... I had better look at the poster name next time

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche