OHHH finaly you took the words out of my mouth bz

I just started learning game programing about 6 months ago and the first book i got was windows game programing for dummes...
and ill tell you i felt like a dummy after i got that paper weight... not only did i not understand most of it due to his short and almost entirly metaphore explanations but the very short book was filled up with storys on games, example games, and obvous tips! I think two chapters are devoted to D3D.
and the worst part was the scource code...
good god i have never seen anything worse in my life!
not one C++ file without an error and not to mention the fiew that when compiled whould crash my system!
thank you for conferming my anger... and if you could recomend books and most importantly scource code... lots of good non-dummy scource code i would be gratfull...


Keep conjuring the undead, my friends...

I will add one more thing. Maybe it''s just me and the way I think but I find the whole "dummies" series to have an offensive title. Who likes to be called a dummy?. I wonder if they would have sold as well if the series was called "...for lame, brain dead morons like yourself!" lol

It''s really not a big deal to me, just interesting. If one of those books had something I was interested in, I''d buy it, but it just seems like a "rude" title for a book. Aparently it works though.

Hmm... it must really say something about the people who buy those books... hahaha just kidding.

BZ what do you do for a living?
....

The title was "for dummies" not "for aspiring computer geniuses"

His books are for people that want to start writing games now, not after six years of studying stuff, of which 10% applies to games.

Andre LaMonthe, in my opinion, is the most successful independent game developer on Earth. (Neglecting Carmack, because well, ID isn''t exactly independent anymore...)

I have and have read cover-to-cover TOTWGPG (Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus) and found it lacking in some areas. I did not feel that it was a waste of my time, and it would benefit people younger in thier careers at least at much as me. I had never written a windows program from stratch before, nor used any of directX. After reading his book, and going through the examples he gives, the dirextX docs make a lot more sense to me now. I think it would have taken me a bit longer to have learned dX just using the docs.

Most importantly, There is no other author on the subject of writing games for windows. Not a one.

I give TOTWGPG 3.5 stars, and every other book I''ve *ever* read on game or graphics programing a 0 or a 1 at best.

And, imnsho, you are retarded for suggesting Java for gaming ;p Unless you''re writing a checkers program, its useless.

...
I didn''t care for LaMonthe''s coidng style either, but I recongized that''s becuae I like C++, and he obviously likes C. That''s doesn''t mean his ideas or code is worthless! And wouldn''t you learn more by tranlating his stuff into your style of coding?
Also, very disappointing, 3D should not appear on the cover of that book. No 3D stuff is covered in it at all. Supposedly there''s a volume 2 due out that will cover d3d stuff... that I found very unprofessional of the publisher.

Well, I have a few opinions.

Although I don't treat Lamothe's books as the bible, it was worthwile. Yes, his style leaves me wanting, but it never claims to teach style. Not that I want data structures in a game programming book. He included linked lists in Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus! Style is a bit different, and he could do better, possibly devote a chapter or a few paragraphs to decent stlye.

I don't think he has a great writing style, nor do I think that he conveys well the ideas to his target audiance. I do understand this - Lamothe's books were not targeted at me. Not that I suggest Java for actually making games (I don't), but to improve OO style it is a great tool.

As to java, I agree entirely. I saw my largest improvements in style learning Java. Forcing OO on you - and you can use polymorphism without even knowing it.

And MSN - Where did you get your statisics? Many people here are hobbyists, and don't feel the need to learn about data structures/algorithms. Those that are serious and want to become profressional don't really have a choice in the matter. No respectable game company would hire one without knowledge of data structures and algorithms. Any decent college/university also teaches these things.

Mike

Edited by - Vetinari on October 24, 2000 12:44:42 AM

Lamothe''s books aren''t really targeted so much at "newbie" PROGRAMMERS, but rather at newbie GAME programmers. His new book totally expects you to know a lot about C and he throws C++ and assembly in there too. So, he expects that you already know how to write clean code. And also, if you don''t know C or C++, he recommends that you read certain books on the language before you read his. I didn''t read any of his books untill i already knew a lot about C++ and had been coding in it for a while, and I''d already programmed some games. So I came at his books with lots of background knowledge. I can see how a complete newbie programmer might have some trouble with his books.

oh well.

Different people learn different things in different ways. So who cares if bz and Necro hate him? Is it affecting your game programming ability? Its just that they don''t like LaMothes style of teaching! If his way of teaching was for everyone, hes be the only one selling any game programming book! So.......

the moral of the story is, just because they don''t like him doesn''t mean you have to fight for him, because truely, from the CENTER OF YOUR BRAIN,...

DO YOU THINK ANYTHING YOU SAY WILL CHANGE THEIR MINDS? NO. SO DON''T BOTHER. PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT, SO LIVE WITH IT!

Been wanting to say THAT for a while...

So you say that TOTWGPG is not targeted at newbie GAME programmers? I disagree... And anyway... I fount Andre quite helpful when I emailed him with several questions and promptly got answers. I wouldn''t say I am a newbie programmer, just a newbie GAME programmer

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

TOTWGPG is totally targeted at newbie game programmers.....just not at newbie programmers....it''s expected that you aren''t a newbie programmer.....(uh, i think that''s what i said...)

I don''t understand why people bash Java so much... I would definitely advise anyone who doesn''t know any programming (or any OOP) to start with Java. As far as base *languages* go, C++ and Java are very similiar, and just as easy. However, when you get to APIs... Java''s are much easier to understand... Java has graphics routines, GUIs, vectors, hashtables, network interfaces, etc. already done... you just call them and they work. If someone is just starting out and they want to code a game, it''s gonna be alot easier to do in Java than trying to implement these things themselves (I know they can use pre-existing libraries in C++ to do these things, however, Java''s are *standard* across all platforms, and come with the language). And I know that at some point these beginning programmers are going to need to know how to do all this stuff themselves, but it helps not to get discouraged and take weeks trying to implement some kind of linked list or tree to do the same thing.... I really applaud you if you had *no* previous programming experiance and took to VC++/DirectX right away... Plus, Java is free... I don''t know of many beginning programmers that want to spring $100+ for MS VC++... Java gives you a really good feel for OOP, and programming in general. Anyway, once someone gets really serious about game development they will almost certainly need to move to VC++/DirectX, but that is a transition I myself am still going through... (I know C/C++ pretty well, learned it in school (university level)... but it wasn''t Windows based, and didn''t do any graphics, etc). I''m not making any really advanced games right now (i.e. 3D) but I am working myself up to it, and for most (I said *most*... don''t go flaming me saying, "Yeah, well, this game here wouldn''t...blah,blah, blah) 2D games, Java is going to work fine. Plus, Java is machine independent, so if someone with a Mac, or Linux wants to play my games, they can... Anyway, I don''t want this to turn into somekind of "C''s Momma Wears Army Boots/Java''s Daddy Can Whoop C++''s Daddy Threads", so basically all this boils down to is:

1.) Java is a pretty good language to learn programming in.
2.) Most people are pretty biased to what they are doing now.
(i.e. "I know how to program in C++ and it lets me do lots
of neat stuff, so it must be better, I tried to do the
same thing in Java and it was really slow so Java must
suck", or "I understand Java... I look at Microsoft''s
Win API and it *scares* me!")
Even I am guilty of this! Basically both Java and C++
have both good and bad points...
3.) All this is my personal opinion and you don''t have to listen to me...

-Nate

Few things:

1) I am defending the book because I don''t want anyone to get the incorrect impression that it is useless. I have several completely useless game programming books at home. None of them are by LaMothe. I forget the author of the worst one but he couldn''t code his way out of a paper bag and the examples don''t work. At all. TOTWGPG is probably the best reference I have other than the DirectX online documentation, DirectX wise.

2) Most people here don''t care if you use Java. Most people here don''t care if you use VB. Heck, most don''t care if you''re writing games in DHTML. Stop thinking that every comment is bashing your fave language. I''ve even written half a game in Java (for proof, click here) but stopped messing with it because trying to plug in an AI slowed it down too much and wrecked the frame rate entirely. Prairie Dog Hunter, Cabela''s Big Game Hunter, and the upcoming Prairie Dog Hunter 2000 are all written in VB (the guy who writes them is a RL friend). If you can make a game in whatever language you choose, good for you. If you spend most of your time telling people that don''t hate Java that they do hate Java but shouldn''t, you''re not going to get a heck of a lot done.

By the way bz, LaMothe did not start out his career writing books. His first game, ever, was TetriMania, which he wrote when he was 19 in truly record time for someone who is new to DirectX. He sold an awful lot of copies of it and made quite a profit. If you''re going to accuse someone of not ever doing anything "real world", please, check your facts first. What was the last game that you sold? What credentials do you have that make you worthy do be such a critic? *grin*

-fel