quote: Original post by Captain_RB
No offense towards any programmer who do an outstanding job pushing the limits for what''s possible in a game. But what you guys miss here is that there is more than just implementing a good idea that makes a game succesful or not. You have to consider interface design together with the logical structure. You have to check with gamers today what they feel they want.
...
The Game Designer get''s resonsability over the usability aspect fo the game too. I would like to see a game without usability be a success.

That''s the whole point... people like to think that "designer" = "idea provider". Designer should mean they do stuff such as draw up the interface, consider how things should be laid out, whether some buttons should be visible all the time or hidden in a menu, and so on. If they want combat, they should look at the formulae and generate a system that gives balanced combat at all levels. If they want a sprawling world in which the action takes place, they should draw up (or create) maps of that world. You know... do stuff . Not just sit there and think, "hey... how about we do Everquest, except with chimpanzees! Cos chimpanzees are so cute!"

Addressing other people''s points... I don''t think youthful idealism is of any merit whatsoever. All that happens is that you eventually get discouraged and that puts you off. Better to start small and get encouraged by your results. (This is an empirically-tested psychological fact, by the way.) And there''s no programmer bias here. It''s just that a design that is no more than an idea doesn''t take much doing. It''s implementation of an idea that counts - and no, that doesn''t just mean code. It means all the things I spoke of above, such as maps, systems, formulae, screen layouts, and so on. One nice example of doing some real design is at http://www.chronocross.de/bt/.

I have utmost respect for game ''designers'', just little respect for the people who come on hear bemoaning lack of originality and yet doing nothing about it except blaming everyone else (programmers, managers, publishers, etc).

You know Kylotan, I disagree and agree with you at the same
time as strange as that sounds. ANYONE can come up with a good
and valid criticism I think. By criticism, I dont mean,
"Munch''s Oddysee sucks." I mean something like "I dont like
Munch''s Oddysee" because the interface is unintuitive, the story
is typical, and boring because it''s like X game and Y game, and
also it took me 30 minutes to beat the game!"
(Those opinions are not mine, I''ve never played the game but its
an example.)
Whether this person should be a designer...That in itself is
a question.
Of course, everyone has opinions, ideas, and dreams, but
whether they go out and seek them is a different issue totally.
Basically this:

1) Opinions/Criticisms don''t need to come from Industry insiders,
my 14 year old brother(if I had one), and his friends know
whether or not something is fun.

2) Yes I agree with you, to be a game designer, obviously you
DO need to be an industry insider.

Opinions are valuable...as I see it, (and have read several
times) a designer must ''get inside the head of his audience''
to do this you need to research common people''s opinions. If
you were a designer, and you were common people, common people
would be designers right?

It''s not that common people are good designers but their opinions
are valuable anyway. After all, they''re who in the end will
determine the success of a game.

While, I myself truthfully am a wannabe, I think what I have
said here is not just bull...Although dont get me wrong, I''m a
determined wannabe, and am learning skills to make myself a
valuable member of a team.

-=Lohrno

I agree with Kylotan's description of game design. Design involves real work, and it's much more than simply providing ideas. Yet lots of programmers feel like they're able to design games as well as or better than anybody. Just look at some of the comments on this thread, like "The only people really qualified to design a game are the people who will have to program it". Programmers are often qualified, but they're not necessarily qualified, and they're certainly not uniquely qualified. "Anybody can come up with ideas", some say, forgetting about the many people whose ideas are little more than clones and ignoring the fact that developing ideas into interesting, playable concepts involves real work.

Some of you seem to believe that programmers in a game development team can easily assume the role of game designers. Programmers are so used to writing software on their own that they easily fool themselves into thinking they're able design games in their sleep. They see designing games as little more than design-by-coding, which is what many programmers are used to doing. This way of thinking does introduce a certain bias, where programmers underestimate the amount of work involved in game design.

Looking at these programmers' products reveals that they're really no better at designing games than a lot of self-proclaimed game designers. The games most amateur programmers make suggest very little work on game design, if any at all. Compared to these people a hard-working designer is a valuable member of the team who is sadly often taken for granted.

Edited by - chronos on February 18, 2002 5:19:30 PM

quote: Original post by chronos
Some of you seem to believe that programmers in a game development team can easily assume the role of game designers. Programmers are so used to writing software on their own that they easily fool themselves into thinking they''re able design games in their sleep. They see designing games as little more than design-by-coding, which is what many programmers are used to doing. This way of thinking does introduce a certain bias, where programmers underestimate the amount of work involved in game design.

I agree with this, and personally, I would rather that the designers did nothing else but design. But they should at least do their job to the best of their ability, and understand what everyone they are working with is capable of. I''m a programmer, but I am a writer and designer on the side. I write much more than I program (and that''s alot), so I know both views pretty well.

However, having programmed games, I feel much more confident as a designer. Having used 3D modelling programs before, and having seen how good some artists can do, I feel more comfortable designing. What''s my point?

Game designers need to design. That''s their job. If they can''t design at a fast pace, in a rational way, then they better help with something else to meet the deadline. Otherwise, I don''t have a use for one of them, and I don''t think I should split my pay with one of them.

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

Ok now I am about to get flamed heh...so I put on my asbestos
suit, and start to speak...

Don''t get me wrong but most of the games in the GD Showcase are
really pretty cool! I like em a lot! I want to empasize that I
am not about to bash them strongly, as I know that many people
put their soul, and sweat into them. BUT....

Sorry they dont show good game design imho.
If programmers could all be designers on the side, I''m sure we
would have seen so many new innovative things there. What did
I see through my perusals? about 10 Asteroids clones, some
Mario and Tetris clones, and even a few Warcraft clones.

Whats with all the clones?! If they were good designers, they
would have made more innovative products right? Basically my
point is this:

All Programmers can Program, but few can Design.
All Designers can Design, but few can Program.

-=Lohrno

quote: Original post by Lohrno
Whats with all the clones?! If they were good designers, they
would have made more innovative products right?

I''m not going to flame you, but I''m going to prove your wrong with a few statements. I don''t mean any harm.

They don''t consider themselves designers.

If the games were innovative, do you honestly think they would be for free in the GameDev.net Showcase?

A game does not need to be well designed to sell anymore. Mainly because programmers and artists can come up with decent ideas that will sell. What does this say? Designers aren''t doing their job well.

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

Yeah maybe thats true that right now Designers arent doing a good
job, but the point I wanted to make was that not all programmers
can be good designers.

But yeah your point is well taken... something for free off of
a showcase in here is not exactly necessarily MEANT to show good
design but still...

-=Lohrno

quote: Original post by chronos
"Anybody can come up with ideas", some say, forgetting about the many people whose ideas are little more than clones and ignoring the fact that developing ideas into interesting, playable concepts involves real work.

and others say, "i can come up with such a great game design," forgetting that the best, most well-though-out design is nothing if it cannot be implemented. and then they get huffy when nobody jumps on the chance to do all the hard work for them to get a game out.
before you flame me, i do know some "game designers" are really truly artists and work hard and all that... and strangely enough the successful ones are those who can also do something useful after the story is written and the neat-o features are planned out.


--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

quote: Original post by Lohrno
Yeah maybe thats true that right now Designers arent doing a good
job, but the point I wanted to make was that not all programmers
can be good designers.

I was basically saying the same thing. Only, I''m taking it from this perspective instead:

Programmers shouldn''t have to design at all, because they aren''t known to do that well. Designers are meant to work well, and in harmony with programmers and artists to make the best game possible, so that programmers won''t have to design and program. Or, if the designer needs help from the programmers, he or she needs to be able to help with the programming in return so that the project can be finished on time.


------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

quote: Original post by Lohrno
You know Kylotan, I disagree and agree with you at the same
time as strange as that sounds. ANYONE can come up with a good
and valid criticism I think. By criticism, I dont mean,
"Munch''s Oddysee sucks." I mean something like "I dont like
Munch''s Oddysee" because the interface is unintuitive, the story
is typical, and boring because it''s like X game and Y game, and
also it took me 30 minutes to beat the game!"

That''s a good start, but that''s more ''undesign'' than design. One skill that separates a designer from a wannabe is that the real designer can sit down and document how they would do it better, and can point out why.

quote: 2) Yes I agree with you, to be a game designer, obviously you DO need to be an industry insider.

It''s always nice to be agreed with, except I didn''t say that at all Nor did I mean to imply it.

All opinions are valuable, but having opinions, even gathering opinions, doesn''t make you a designer. Designing things makes you a designer. I am not saying your opinion is worthless if you don''t ''actually design'', but your contribution towards any one game is likely to be far smaller. By all means, post opinions on games here to help us all, but back them up with evidence or reasoning, and don''t call yourself a designer! (Not aimed at you personally.)

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