In case you don't know yet, writers have a .1% chance of getting a job in the game industry, because large companies won't "waste" their money on writers when they can just have the designers and programmers do it.

Try to find someone who has been hired as a writer to work on a game (for a large company).

It's the harsh truth; personally, I think writers should have an equal opprotunity, but I don't really have say in that.

quote:
Drizzt, I'm assuming you never read the book?

I played the game, and I didn't want to waste my time. Anyway, I read other books by Clancy and I don't like his writing (not that it's bad, I just don't like it). I know the story is more specific than what I gave, but try generalizing Final Fantasy's story as well as I did Rainbow Six...

------------------------------
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Edited by - Drizzt DoUrden on February 17, 2002 10:11:45 PM

quote: Original post by Dwarf with Axe
Why, oh why, do people want to develop games so much when they have little or no experience?

Because people''s imaginations aren''t strictly bound by how much they know. In other words, while knowing certainly helps us to better imagine, not knowing doesn''t prevent us from doing so. It''s not absolutely necessary to have game development experience to come up with an interesting game concept.

The difficulty is not so much in coming up with an idea for a game, but in expressing that idea clearly and actually doing something with it. This requires a certain degree of discipline and experience, but some people would rather simply imagine, just like they''re able to.

I don''t think we disagree at all, Drizzt.

I was talking about hobbyist and pro-hopefuls, not pro''s. I work for a small plant here in Texas making little apps for the engineers and the office (I double as the network guy and triple as the boss''s personal tech support). If they tell me to make something, I make it. If I were working as a professional game developer (which I will try to do when I complete my CS degree) it would be the same, though having a designer that knew what I was talking about when I bring up concerns with the graphics API we chose or the software we use could only help.

Your thoughts on writers is dead on, too, I''m afraid. You touched on the reason I don''t like most FPS games...no plot. I want a story. Hell, I wish for a story that is cohesive even in MP mode. Most of the time the writing is done by someone who "also writes", if you get my drift.


ShadeStorm, the Day_Glo Fish

Drizzt you make a very good point (for an Elf!) but I was really talkin'' about them thar people who only come up with the idea and maybe, maybe think that they are helping.

It''s one thing to work with the design tools provided and create a thuroughly-thought out level so that the programmers and artists know exactly what to do, and it''s another thing to sit around and just dream stuff up...

What is really funny (might not be the right word to use), is that my friend just called me again and proposed that we sold a cool idea to a game company...

Now, how was I supposed to respond? I said "... You''ve got to be kidding me, right? Do you know how-" and he pretty much cut me off and hung up... Crazy people.

Anyway, the flower-eater, I mean Drizzt , is right. But I think that he and I both mean the same thing.

Designers should be working with everyone else while designing something. I knew a great guy who would say something along the lines of "Okay, the house over here has some fog around it, probably just enough so you can''t see the windows, but the glow from inside. There''s some birds that are flying around, and a simple particle engine could handle the fountain over here. The music should be eerie, and beat into a loud orchestra, making your heart jump when the monster bursts through the door. Now, the level is designed to only allow the player-" and so on.

I once read in the Bible of Gnomes that a true designer is someone who has educated themselves in all of the aspects of game development (i.e, the designer knows how to compose, code, knows what the players want, etc.)

Anyway, that was just my three shillings.

May yer axe be sharper than a goblin tooth,
~Dwarf


Complete amatures whose only relevant skill is programming undertake to design games with no further preparation than their own experience as game players. Those who overrate their own understanding undercut their own potential for learning.

Eh...I don''t entirely agree with this.

Not everyone can learn from a book.

Some people learn by seeing pictures or models.
Others learn by just hearing it from someone.
And most of us programmers, I believe, learn best from books.

I also believe that game design is understanding how everything
goes together to make a complete game. The role of a designer
is more like a combination of a producer and a(albeit visually)writer.

Just coming up with the basic idea does not a designer make.
They should be designing how the interface looks and how it
works. They should be coming up with ways of different objects
to react with other objects. They should be designing what the
different objects ARE.

None of that necessarily requires artistic or programming skills.
They help, sure, but I think a designer can flesh out the game
well enough without them.

-Hyatus
"da da da"

Oh I know, I was just pointing out that a designer who knows a lot is invaluable. =)

quote: Original post by Dwarf with Axe
It''s one thing to work with the design tools provided and create a thuroughly-thought out level so that the programmers and artists know exactly what to do, and it''s another thing to sit around and just dream stuff up...

Of course, if you want a job like that, study 24/7 to become a genius, and you can be paid to sit in a room and write down ideas. I wouldn''t include any known game designers (other than the ones who designed Final Fantasy 7, and Dungeons and Dragons, even though it''s not a video game ) as geniuses.

quote:
What is really funny (might not be the right word to use), is that my friend just called me again and proposed that we sold a cool idea to a game company...

The better word would be sad. Does he know anything about game development at all? If designers can be paid to sit around and think of cool ideas, and do nothing else, than I want to be able to sit around and think of general functions and classes that anyone can use in their application or game, and get paid for it. I don''t think that''s going to happen, because any good programmer can come up with their own functions.

quote:
Anyway, the flower-eater, I mean Drizzt , is right. But I think that he and I both mean the same thing.

Read this. I''m not a flower-eater (druid)!

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

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Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

You know, I''m sorry, and ashamed to say it but I think that I
fall into the same category that Dwarf''s friend does. Well
other than the fact that I''m trying to learn to code, and
design games. =P

I don''t know, I feel like my game ideas are valuable and that
I can make a nice contribution to the game industry but I
don''t think I can do it just yet. I think it''ll take several
years before I can do anything sadly enough. Many people
almost write to people like me and him ''Don''t even try, your
ideas are almost useless. Company''s prefer to get their ideas
from the inside.'' I mean maybe they dont say exactly that but
it sure sounds like it! You know what, I dont like the tone
of people like this... I mean sure its realistic to say that
you will not get a game idea realized by a simple oral or
written presentation without working in the industry, but I
dont know, I feel like it kills our youthful ideals a little to
hear things like that. I''m sure there are several people out
there who read that and said "Well screw that, I''m gonna be a
Network Admin and play MMORPGs all day." Maybe they had a good
idea. I also feel that original ideas these days arent so easy
to come by. Sure there are the ICOs and the Luigi''s Mansions
out there, but in General, if you hear the words FPS or RTS,
you know how to play and beat that game already.

So, I want to add a positive note for all the hopefuls out there:
Work toward your goals and someday you will achieve them.
I think basically I agree with Dwarf, but I want to say it in
a more positive light, because there are so many killjoys out
there.
Dwarf, tell your friend to either learn to model or to learn
to code. (If you havent already...)

And nobody who has a serious dream should give it up!

-=Lohrno

OOC: Drizzt, I hope you know me axe waveth at yee in good humor. =)

IC:

My sig pretty much explains my thoughts...

But I do encourage people to learn and practice.



Drizzt: Err, When I says somethin like "It''s one thing to work with the design tools provided and create a thuroughly-thought out level so that the programmers and artists know exactly what to do, and it''s another thing to sit around and just dream stuff up..."

what I mean is that I like designers who know what your saying when they ask you to do something and you say "Bah! That''ll overload my +3 GreatStack of Memory!"

BTW, D&D isn''t just a great game, it''s life. =)

~Dwarf





Complete amatures whose only relevant skill is programming undertake to design games with no further preparation than their own experience as game players. Those who overrate their own understanding undercut their own potential for learning.

The more I think about this issue the more I wonder if the views expressed in this thread don't have something to do with programmer psychology. Unless the programmers are getting paid for their work, a leader who isn't also a programmer will be looked upon as a lazy outsider who does nothing to contribute to the game, regardless of how hard he works on a game's design.

From the programmers perspective it looks like he's doing most of the work by himself, working for a boss without guaranteed compensation. Such feelings may often be justified, but I think there's a bit of prejudice by part of amateur programmers, who often consider themselves the most important members of a game development team. It's worth noting that an engine without a game concept is not a game at all.

Edited by - chronos on February 18, 2002 4:10:50 AM