quote: Original post by krez
and others say, "i can come up with such a great game design," forgetting that the best, most well-though-out design is nothing if it cannot be implemented. and then they get huffy when nobody jumps on the chance to do all the hard work for them to get a game out.

The best, most well-thought-out design is certainly not nothing. It''s almost as if you''re saying that programming is "hard work" and game design is not. Let''s distinguish between hard working designers and lazy people with ideas. They''re not the same at all. Programmers are important, to be sure, but they''re often a bit too self-important.

quote: before you flame me, i do know some "game designers" are really truly artists and work hard and all that... and strangely enough the successful ones are those who can also do something useful after the story is written and the neat-o features are planned out.

Design is an ongoing process. It''s not just "writing the story" and planning "neat-o features". Even as a game is being made design choices are undertaken and tasks are coordinated toward a common goal. I see the designer as a kind of architect, providing detailed plans as a common point of reference for every member of the development team. I call that hard work.

quote: Original post by chronos
..It''s almost as if you''re saying that programming is "hard work" and game design is not. Let''s distinguish between hard working designers and lazy people with ideas ..

I''d just like to clarify that during this discussion, I do not mean to put down the designers who actually do their work. Rather, I am speaking about the "lazy people with ideas." I do not classify design as a lower-level part of game development.

quote:
...Programmers are important, to be sure, but they''re often a bit too self-important.

Conceaded, you mean? Don''t you think that people claiming they have ideas and being stuck-up when they are put down are conceaded? I respect anyone who can come up with ideas all day, and get them on paper nicely, in a way that their team can understand. I am frustrated when someone who doesn''t even know the difference between real-time and turn-based games comes up with an idea for a 70 hour RPG.

quote:
Design is an ongoing process. It''s not just "writing the story" and planning "neat-o features". Even as a game is being made design choices are undertaken and tasks are coordinated toward a common goal. I see the designer as a kind of architect, providing detailed plans as a common point of reference for every member of the development team. I call that hard work.

This is quite definately hard work. However, some "designers" don''t even go as far as this. Once again, you are defending those who aren''t being attacked. We aren''t reffering to the designers who do their job well; instead, we are refferring to the people who claim they have ideas, and then round up people to work for them, without giving them any direction.

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

Since I don''t work in the games industry I can''t really say how conservative and orthodox the people in charge of hiring are. However, I''d like to point a few examples of jobs that I have had or could have had based on a "generalist''s" knowledge.

Once several years ago while going to school and working part time as just a bag-boy at a grocery (yup, I was one of those) I walked out a lady with a young daughter speaking in a language that to my ears sounded Dutch (I had some Surinamese and Dutch friends), so I asked her if she was Dutch, she smiled and said no, so I said "oh, you must be a Belgian from the flemish region". She was actually shocked and stopped, and she asked me how I knew that. I just said that I''ve met people from around the world, and I was curious about other cultures. She said I was the first American she had met in 5 years that knew that some Belgians spoke a Dutch dialect instead of French. She offered me a job with a marketing firm because she needed someone that could deal with clients from across the world. I said that I didn''t really know anything about marketing, but she said that with my little conversations from here that I had the right attitude and cross-skills. I didn''t take the job because it conflicted with my studies, but if I had wanted it, I could have had it,

Just recently, I was on a flight and brought along a book on Programming Linux, and the passenger behind me asked me if it was on Oracle. I started talking with her and found out she taught Oracle8a at the Oracle office in my hometown. We talked and I told her straight up that I was still learning program and that I worked in an IT department, but only in the support team. But she was impressed with my wanting to learn and that I was totally self-taught. So she''s going to set me up with an interview at Oracle now, whom she says trains people in both applications development and to be DBA''s.

The whole point is that I didn''t really have any native ability or knowledge in these areas, just a fascination, curiousity and drive. I think a game company should approach hiring in the same manner. They need someone with a "big" picture view to help with game design. Even in my current job, I see how the specialists put on blinders when we run into trouble. When we run into problems, everyone blams someone else, Security/Auditing, says it''s a networking problem, Networking says it''s an application problem and Applcations say it''s Mainframe problem. But the trouble is, none of the network guys know programming, or even simple scripting, none of the applications guys really know hardware of netwroking, etc. So when you have a broad (though not necessarily deep) understanding, you can see things that the specialists ignore.

How does this relate to gaming? the programmers or artists are are specialists, and though they may know their fields very well, this does not mean they know how to pull together all the related components to make an interesting game design. But that''s exactly what development studios do. They don''t really seem to have dedicated designers (though I''m sure some do). That''s not to say that a designers shouldn''t know about programming or art. Quite the opposite, I think a designers should know about the basic fundamentals of programming and art tools. You can do it without it, but it''s much harder, like asking somone to compose music without knowing what the instrument sounds like or what sheet music is.

quote: Original post by Kylotan
That''s a good start, but that''s more ''undesign'' than design. One skill that separates a designer from a wannabe is that the real designer can sit down and document how they would do it better, and can point out why.

Yeah, its criticism, sorry if I sounded like I thought that that
was Design. I wanted to convey the message that I think everyone
can have a valid opinion. I didnt say everyone can be a
designer, and I dont think everyone can, but I see we kinda
agree with eachother in a weird way hehe.

quote: Original post by Kylotan
It''s always nice to be agreed with, except I didn''t say that at all Nor did I mean to imply it.

Well if you didnt say it, I''ll say it hehe. I think its a basic
reality of the gaming industry as far as I can observe.

You know, at first I disagreed with you because I thought you
were trying to imply that people who did not in fact work in
the industry''s opinions are worthless basically. Since you
say that thats not what you think, I apologize, I thought thats
what you meant!

And, yeah, having good ideas, or criticisms, or stories, etc
doesnt make you a game designer...YET! I think all these things
are good, but I''d like to see more people more optomistic about
this. I''d like to see more people actually go out and become
good designers. We need fresh ideas, and people already I think
I myself do all these things, I can write good stories, critique
stuff, have good ideas...but I dont call myself a designer just
yet. I''m not, I''m a wannabe! =D (At least I admit it )
Yes, all this takes hard time and practice and THEN you can try
for a job like that. (This was restated about 1000 times )
I dont know, I just dont like to kill people''s idealism either
though. I mean when someone comes here with an idea, we should
tell them to flesh it out, and write a long design doc for it,
and not just tell them in a rude way that they are peons. I get
the feeling like that from reading some of the posts. Including
yours Kylo, but I misunderstood ya, sorry!

Basically I dont know I feel like we shouldnt be bitching at
these people so much. Just we should remind them that if
that is really what they want to do it will be a long process
of hard work, and they must focus I think. Not just tell them
"You are never going to get that implemented, forget it kid! Go
play EQ like a good little sheep." Ok well maybe they weren''t
that harsh...but...

In general, you can''t become a programmer without trying to
program, you can''t become a writer without trying to write,
you can''t become a singer without trying to sing, and you can''t
become a game designer without trying to design games.

And still, I dont think that all programmers are gonna be good
game designers, sure they have some advantages in this area
already, but the two dont really go hand in hand totally IMHO.

-=Lohrno

quote: Original post by Drizzt DoUrden
Conceaded, you mean?

I meant self-important, but conceited will do just fine.

quote: Don''t you think that people claiming they have ideas and being stuck-up when they are put down are conceaded?

Possibly, but not necessarily. It depends on the person''s ideas and what if any consideration these ideas are given by the others.

quote: We aren''t reffering to the designers who do their job well; instead, we are refferring to the people who claim they have ideas, and then round up people to work for them, without giving them any direction.

If those are the only people you''re referring to then fine, I agree. The problem is that some people here seem to be saying more than that, even if perhaps they don''t really mean to. The impression I get is that some people here see programming as more important work than game design, which they feel is something anybody can do.

Perhaps all this talk about "game design" has clouded the original issue. Going back to Dwarf with Axe''s original post makes me want to say the following: As long as he doesn''t act like your boss or asks for game designer credit, it''s perfectly okay for your friend to share his ideas with you and do nothing more.

You know, I think anybody can program given the patience, time,
and research. Whether they will be good at it...who knows?

I've read several articles about how programmers now are just
about the least wanted proffesion in the computer field. Right
now several programmers have taken jobs in steel factories,
sanitation plants, etc. Why? First, the job market sucks, and
second, everyone learned to be a programmer, and now we have a
small glut I think. I don't know how true this all holds for
GAME programmers but thats just what I've been hearing in the
news. Programmers really are a dime a dozen...talented
programmers however maybe a little more expensive. I'm not a
good programmer yet but I will be.

-=Lohrno


Edited by - Lohrno on February 18, 2002 9:53:38 PM

Now that''s the problem Chronos, he wants nearly all the credit. He says that him thinking of ideas like "okay, so maybe the aliens don''t like ore, so they mine for gold instead" earns him exactly the same credit that I should take.

The kid is nuts, and needs some mental therapy. =)

I''m glad to see that we are all debating this maturely, and I hope this thread continues. Perhaps by reading all of you wonderful posters (I mean that!) some newbies will get some insight and not ask or do stupid things. =)

~Dwarf

First, to the original poster, I have had the same experience. These people exists, you just have to learn what ideas to take, and who will be good team mates. My brother has great ideas for war games that I could possible implement. The first thing I tell him is to design the troops and flesh it out more, but he never did, and I did not have the time to because I was already working on a hobby engine.

Second, my friend who is a game designer for Konami does more than just flop out ideas. From what we have talked about, he gives direction, a little team management, and controls the overall flow design of the game. This means lots of meetings, lots of status checks, etc. to make sure the game is being designed accordenly. Now, he is not the manager, but he has to have the skills to be able to talk and work with the whole team. While he does not know enough programming, he does know enough of everything to get his point across and be able to listen to his team mates.
As a previous thread, and many arcticles, said, in the end, the whole team puts a little bit in. But that is also true for any application.

Finally, do not get angry at your friend, just ask him to do the next step (as simple as asking him to at least write it down). Go through the software engineering process with him, you will both learn something. And as I said, just be aware if you are wasting your time or not.

quote: Original post by chronos
Let''s distinguish between hard working designers and lazy people with ideas. They''re not the same at all... Design is an ongoing process. It''s not just "writing the story" and planning "neat-o features". Even as a game is being made design choices are undertaken and tasks are coordinated toward a common goal.

i agree with you completely. i was speaking of the self-proclaimed "game designers" that are always complaining about not getting the respect they think they deserve. sorry if i seemed abrasive.
Dauntless: i love that story... but you have a willingness (no, a drive) to learn...


--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

I guess I fall into the not extremely motivated category. I have ideas and I end up doing concept art writing the docs but beyond that I''m basicly lost. I think its because if I can''t get immediate results I get frustrated and lose interest and the zeal I had before very quickly. I''m working to change that though.