The victims are the products of their own choices.

That sounds like the idea behind victimhood. All the research I've done on it since seeing the term thrown around, seems to say that victimhood is the idea that the victim is in some way responsible for the crime or incident that is done to them. That may work here and make people feel justified in ignoring it, but try applying that to a felony crime and it quickly loses its air.

That's perhaps not quite the same thing as being largely free of sexism.

I just meant it isn't as bad in the actual industry as I had thought. Doing more research, I'd hate to say it, but it appears most of the hate comes from gamers (a small minority) during cons, telling them to quit and such. I think the rest of the hate comes from groups that realize they can piggyback the gamers that are spitting hate and make it bigger than it should have been.

The victims are the products of their own choices. Important is to educate the potential victims to make better choices before the problems can even arise.

Do you know what victim blaming is? Learn about it. It's not welcome here.

Hear, hear. There's no room here for victim blaming. This isn't about people's skin being too thin. They're receiving some of the most vile harassment one can imagine, over something the victims have an absolute right to express. I suggest you find another elephant.

People *are* responsible for the outcomes of their choices when they are the effect to their own cause; but they are *not* responsible to anticipate or preempt the misbehavior of others.

Well, firstly we need cut loose a chunk of femininity and introduce some masculinity. So, instead of comforting the victims of the system, we should shun anyone who posesses the nerves to quit trying.

There was so much objectionable in that post that I'm not entirely surprised that this one was missed. So... the industry is 80%+ male and... you want to fix the problems by reducing the femininity and increase the masculinity? We need to turn all those pesky women into men? That'll fix it? Therefore I'm guessing that you're saying that there is no value to the female perspective or feminine values?

Plus victims need to harden up. When they've been traumatised and brutalised the correct solution is no mercy. Be tougher on them. How very Spartan.

Do you know what victim blaming is? Learn about it. It's not welcome here.

Yea, lets not blame the kid for yoloing down from the highest branch of the tree and through the process breaking a leg, let's blame the gravity instead of, I dunno, chastising the kid for not posessing enough common knowledge to make the obvious decision NOT to swagger down from somewhere, where harm is most likely to follow.

That sounds like the idea behind victimhood. All the research I've done on it since seeing the term thrown around, seems to say that victimhood is the idea that the victim is in some way responsible for the crime or incident that is done to them. That may work here and make people feel justified in ignoring it, but try applying that to a felony crime and it quickly loses its air.

Indeed, stuff tastes sour when dealing with hyperboles. ;)

There was so much objectionable in that post that I'm not entirely surprised that this one was missed. So... the industry is 80%+ male and... you want to fix the problems by reducing the femininity and increase the masculinity? We need to turn all those pesky women into men? That'll fix it? Therefore I'm guessing that you're saying that there is no value to the female perspective or feminine values?

Dude, you need to work on your reading comprehension, before spinning some wild strawmen.

The gist of my point with masculinity is. A failure is not someone who fucks up or messes up something. A failure is someone who quits trying. No one is going to hand you a success in life. You yourself have to go and take it. And of course, you are gonna fail. But then you try again, and again and again and again and just keep tying till the day you die.

So, instead of hugging and comforting the females on this issue, you should be telling them: "Waddaya wailing here, eh? Oh you want to do a video game. What are you waiting here then? Go and do it. If whatever you do, fails, you do it again and again until you succeed. Sitting and wailing is never going to help you. Accepting the state of failure is the true failure."

Plus victims need to harden up. When they've been traumatised and brutalised the correct solution is no mercy. Be tougher on them. How very Spartan.

Oy!

How about you put my comment back into its original context. How about that?

There was so much objectionable in that post that I'm not entirely surprised that this one was missed.

When encountering content like Ironmaggot's I don't really have a viable course of action to fall back on. In my mind he must be either a troll or so far out of it any kind of discussion is pointless and just derails the thread further.

I could of course just post to say I don't agree at all, but that feels just like adding unnecessary noise to say something extremely obvious.

Do you know what victim blaming is? Learn about it. It's not welcome here.

Yea, lets not blame the kid for yoloing down from the highest branch of the tree and through the process breaking a leg, let's blame the gravity instead of, I dunno, chastising the kid for not posessing enough common knowledge to make the obvious decision NOT to swagger down from somewhere, where harm is most likely to follow.

That sounds like the idea behind victimhood. All the research I've done on it since seeing the term thrown around, seems to say that victimhood is the idea that the victim is in some way responsible for the crime or incident that is done to them. That may work here and make people feel justified in ignoring it, but try applying that to a felony crime and it quickly loses its air.

Indeed, stuff tastes sour when dealing with hyperboles. ;)

There was so much objectionable in that post that I'm not entirely surprised that this one was missed. So... the industry is 80%+ male and... you want to fix the problems by reducing the femininity and increase the masculinity? We need to turn all those pesky women into men? That'll fix it? Therefore I'm guessing that you're saying that there is no value to the female perspective or feminine values?

Dude, you need to work on your reading comprehension, before spinning some wild strawmen.

The gist of my point with masculinity is. A failure is not someone who fucks up or messes up something. A failure is someone who quits trying. No one is going to hand you a success in life. You yourself have to go and take it. And of course, you are gonna fail. But then you try again, and again and again and again and just keep tying till the day you die.

So, instead of hugging and comforting the females on this issue, you should be telling them: "Waddaya wailing here, eh? Oh you want to do a video game. What are you waiting here then? Go and do it. If whatever you do, fails, you do it again and again until you succeed. Sitting and wailing is never going to help you. Accepting the state of failure is the true failure."

Plus victims need to harden up. When they've been traumatised and brutalised the correct solution is no mercy. Be tougher on them. How very Spartan.

Oy!

How about you put my comment back into its original context. How about that?

Alright, I'll bite I guess. So when a woman gets constantly harassed and stalked just because she happens to be a woman in who works in tech/games, she should...what? ignore it and continue to be harassed, after all it's her fault for being, uh, female? She should be more masculine and just what? What does masculinity have to do with not giving up? Are you saying that femininity means giving up? That's some pretty macho bullshit.

I debated for awhile posting my opinion after seeing some annoying backlash - but figured now is better than ever I guess.

There are many posts here which provide a very nice example of the issues I have to deal with most days at school. For example, just two weeks ago we had a project due in this Distributed Computing course I was taking. Due to some health problems the original professor was unable to finish the semester. The following week a different, yet equally versed on the topic, professor came in. Since the original professor was both late as a new hire, and left, the new professor gave us a choice between the original "hard" project, and one which was "easier".

For some background - since day one of college I thought that I would fall behind in school compared to the male students. I didn't get to program since the time the universe began and I really thought myself much less skilled than my peers. I didn't know the tips and tricks, I knew the basics which only could go so far. I took it upon myself to start learning on my own to get ahead (and later realized I wasn't behind at all, but actually very far ahead) and I was able to use my knowledge on the original project. I turned the project in, received a 100 where the average was an 82, and the teacher thought it was well done so he wanted to demonstrate it. For once I wish that if I did well on a solo project my classmates would give me a pat on the back and say "Hey that was really neat! Would you mind explaining how you made that?".

Instead I was met with accusations that I had slept with the professor in order to achieve my grade - when if I had done worse or average nothing would have been said. I guess I could have just gone to the professor which starts a whole "denying" chain on a fictitious event while makes me look like... well.. someone that does sexual favors for grades. Why would I want to put myself through that?

I worked hard on my project - putting in much more effort than my peers, and I was rewarded. To be told that I just had the professor write the code for me and sleeping with him for the grade.. it honestly really hurt.

In this instance the only two options I have are deal with it and hope it gets better, or change majors. Changing majors seems silly because I honestly love programming and computers. So dealing with it currently seems to be the best option as I believe that after school it will not be this way. Sure some companies will always discriminate against groups or individuals, but that just comes down to me doing research on companies before applying.

However I still must deal with:

• No one wants to group with me because I am seen as lazy and will not do any work.
• As above, even if I do work, it is seen as always broken or not working.
• I am seen as less intelligent than my peers, even when I demonstrate otherwise.
• I am just a kiss up trying my hardest to flirt my way to an A pretending to care, when I honestly care and love programming.
• My opinion doesn't matter because of biological differences.

Now granted I am a single individual, however, my friends at other schools have had very similar experiences which resulted in them changing majors. I do not believe my experience is "one in a million" but rather something very ordinary that is largely covered up.

I do not believe my experience is "one in a million" but rather something very ordinary that is largely covered up.

Sadly, I don't think it is covered up, rather I think it is that women are subjected to those kind of things and finally just give up. They don't speak out because, again sadly, they would be subjected to the same hate and abuse Brianna Wu, Zoe Quinn, Jennifer Hepler, etc. and they know it. Sickening that women go through that, but it is even more sickening that people don't believe it exists or falls to the bull term 'victimhood' to give them reason to ignore the truth.

Yea, lets not blame the kid for yoloing down from the highest branch of the tree and through the process breaking a leg, let's blame the gravity instead of, I dunno, chastising the kid for not posessing enough common knowledge to make the obvious decision NOT to swagger down from somewhere, where harm is most likely to follow.

To which my--apparently preemptive--reply, is this:

People *are* responsible for the outcomes of their choices when they are the effect to their own cause; but they are *not* responsible to anticipate or preempt the misbehavior of others.

They did not leap from the tree hitting every branch on the way down. They stuck the landing just fine, thank you, and are being rewarded now by being beaten with the branches by jelous, small-minded twerps. And here you are saying "Boy, she sure should have known about those branches! Didn't she know leaping from trees is dangerous?" Enough said.

The gist of my point with masculinity is. A failure is not someone who fucks up or messes up something. A failure is someone who quits trying.

These women have mostly *not* quit, despite facing dismissal, harassment, and intimidation so much larger than you have ever experienced that you are not even capable of imagining what it might actually be like. You and I, because we were lucky enough to be men, have about as much personal appreciation for what its like to be a scorned woman in technology as we do for what it might be like to have been born into a Bangladeshi slum. You have no idea what its like for people to be over-critical of your every failure, to dismiss or conspiratize your every success, and to devalue your every opinion, despite a lifetime of your best, most-earnest efforts. You have no idea what its like to have some misguided male badger you into taking over your work to "help" or "protect" you from what must be your own inherent, inevitable failure as not-a-man, and worse-still, to experience the expectation of offering up yourself as some kind of reward in payment, or to be the victim of intimidation, slander, violence--possibly the threat or actuality of rape--for taking a stand and saying no to their expectant gaze.

Aiive's story is not the exception to the rule, it is the 'rule'. I do encourage her to not give up -- to not negotiate with or give in to the the status quo -- but I will not minimize or normalize the discrimination she and other women face all the time. All women want, all anyone wants, is to have a fair shake and to start at the same point as everyone else.

I'd also like to publicly thank Aiive for sharing. Part of what allows a broken status-quo to continue is that the effected are made to feel that they cannot speak up for fear of being visited by even greater effects. Thus, their stories are never heard and their experience is marginalized in general, and doubted when a few inevitably come to light. We can't make informed decisions about what our culture even is (much less where it needs to go) unless everyone feels safe to participate in the conversation, and to have their experienced valued. Bravo, kudos, and much respect to Aiive.