And there's THIS that pretty much sums up my view on this completely:

http://ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?s=75b12f6692ad482b9f51e6aa39da8919&p=966513&postcount=7

Hahaha! But seriously, if someone only takes loops and produced them then they're more a DJ or producer than a composer. If someone takes loops to fill in some spots and does so in a cool and effective way, I have no problem with that. And the reality is we need BOTH DJ/producers and composers in game audio. Both have their merits. I'd probably suck at remixing a Bjork song but can write certain styles of music really well.

Haha this is epic stuff!

Sums up the "using premade stuff is cheating" thing really well.

Well I wasn't trying to imply that using loops is 100% bad- there's nothing wrong with using loops and samples creatively, but the sad fact is that very few developers are now willing to pay for an orchestral recording session, when they can get the 'same' results from someone with a copy of cubase and a cinematic loops pack. Convincing developers/producers that it's worth paying for real musicians is becoming harder and harder.

Yes people from the industry will probably know what it is and it does feel cheap, but 99% of the people who play the game? Probably won't even notice.

But I like to think there's more to our art/craft than just being acceptable. We should be striving for the best results possible, surely? Pushing boundaries etc.

And don't underestimate the subconscious- even though 99% of players 'wouldn't notice' it would still contribute to improving their playing experience, and their emotional attachment to the game.

And don't underestimate the subconscious- even though 99% of players 'wouldn't notice' it would still contribute to improving their playing experience, and their emotional attachment to the game.

Errrr... can you give a source for that claim? I study psychology, with a focus on how the conscious and unconscious work recently, and I've never come across anything that would back this up. :P Actually, I'm pretty sure if you had laymen listen to one original composition and one that uses overused loops, and asked which of the two was of higher quality simply based on what they heard (and given that the mixing quality and loudness was roughly similar, so it didn't factor in), most of them would answer the second composition was of higher quality. Why? Because to the layman's unconscious the question is too difficult to answer, so the unconscious substitutes the question with the related but much easier question, "Which of the two songs sounds more like the songs that I like/that are popular/that I know?" And for that question there's a clear winner, and that's song #2. So their intuition will be that song #2 is of higher quality.

Admittedly, I have never seen a study about this particular issue, so perhaps there is something I'm overlooking, but I'm very confident in this. :)

Cheers,

Chris

And there's THIS that pretty much sums up my view on this completely:

http://ocremix.org/forums/showpost.php?s=75b12f6692ad482b9f51e6aa39da8919&p=966513&postcount=7

That quote is hilarious, thx Nate!

Well I wasn't trying to imply that using loops is 100% bad- there's nothing wrong with using loops and samples creatively, but the sad fact is that very few developers are now willing to pay for an orchestral recording session, when they can get the 'same' results from someone with a copy of cubase and a cinematic loops pack. Convincing developers/producers that it's worth paying for real musicians is becoming harder and harder.

I think you're mixing two different discussions or topics here, honestly. There's:

- producing pieces using solely loops

- composing pieces using virtual instruments

- composing then recording a live orchestra

Each of these things are very different and serve different purposes. Not every project needs a full orchestra recording. And sometimes just recording one or two live instruments on a well produced bed of virtual instruments can create great results. Some games do better with remixes - think of SSX Tricky. That game (and the music) worked VERY well and it was mostly DJ/remixed stuff that was implemented really well (like having the drums drop out when you were getting massive air then kick back in when you landed). Having a live orchestra for that game, no matter how great the recording was, would be strange and less effective.

One other point - it's really unrealistic to think most projects, especially the level of projects found commonly on sites like GD.net, can even afford to pay what it costs to record an orchestra. I'm just about finished with my own personal project (three pieces) where I recorded four musicians (one at a time) in a studio with an engineer. When it's all said and done, this is gonna cost me about $1,000. So for an indie studio, the most cost effective way for most is to hire a composer who's really good at MIDI/VST mock ups. Then perhaps layer in a few live tracks here and there.

Honestly again I do mostly sound design and not music but I was like " I am using some soundbanks to do this but what can I do... I can't record guns". And I actually felt pretty bad about it. Then I got my internship and I noticed that where I work, they don't care at all how you do it as long as you do it fast enough.

I assume it's the same story for preset music.

I was probably overexagerrating my boss's hatred of loops. I wasn't saying loops are bad at all. I am talking about a few specific set of loops (omnisphere, trillian, stylus and such). These are very high quality loops, and they are found everywhere. However, the company I work for is a fairly recent startup, and they are competing with GIGANTIC stock music libraries like APM and Warner/Chapell. He just really wants our music to sound different than the rest of the industry, because we can't compete with the amount of music they're making. As long as he doesn't easily recognize the loop, its fine. We often play around with effects and rhythms to disguise them.

Then again, I completely forgot that game music is completely different than stock music, so I'm not sure how it works for games (though I hope to!)

Nicholassinger, regarding orchestral recordings:

It's EXTREMELY rare to get a full orchestral recording of pieces for most music projects. Multitracking a few live instruments is a more common way to record.

So for an indie studio, the most cost effective way for most is to hire a composer who's really good at MIDI/VST mock ups. Then perhaps layer in a few live tracks here and there.

This is by far the most cost effective way to do it. Especially when you can disguise sample instruments when they're mixed with live instruments.

Anyways, I have no hatred towards loops whatsoever. It's just a few loop libraries that are very overused that our boss isn't fond of.