Average is relative of course, since the average programmer, or even the average person seriously interested in being a programmer is smarter than a normal person.

And with this the problems gain a bit more light; the belief that everyone is some how above 'average' who happens to be interested in programming and on this I call bullshit.

This depends on how you define programming and serious I suppose. I refer later to how people who are considered dumb and pushed away from programming for being considered dumb. I was even making the point that more people would be into programming seriously if not for that. And indeed the argument stands whether or not programmers are really above average. The whole argument is about how perception and not reality is what matters.

The (incorrect) belief however is what fuels the problem; people sit at home, on their own, they code and they think they are so great at everything, they inflate their egos and then, when faced with others and in many cases the truth they AREN'T all special react badly to protect their ego.

This is certainly true.

The proof of this is quite simple really; if the world was full of above average programmers then these people would be solving their own problems and not asking questions that maybe a few minutes to an hour or two of logical thought might solve. Instead they run to a forum and ask for help without trying to use their brain.

The world is not "full" of above average programmers. And are above average programmers programmers who program above average or people who program and are also above average?

If this had been 20 years ago then yeah, I might have agreed with the statement a bit more as back then if you wanted to learn how to program you got a book, learnt the basics and then tried to fix your own shit because there WASNT a forum sitting around to help you with your trivial problem. (And yes, I am of this generation; my learning was done with a couple of books and example source code which I picked apart, often laying on my bed for hours going over printed out MC68000 assembler code.)

Now what is the difference between a person telling you and a book except that using a book doesn't absorb another person's time?

So, no... people interested in programming aren't all above average when it comes to intelligence.

A quick trip around the forums will show you this and if you've been out in the world working you'll also come across them.

I said people seriously into programming. How many of those people stay for months or years on serious boards because they are committed?

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't look down on these people or anything like that - about the only problem I have with them loops back to my original point; they sit in their room, convince themselves they are great and then when told they have done it wrong or their assumptions are incorrect react by having a go and then declaring the person who knows more is wrong and blindly carrying on along their foolish path.

(And yes, I've seen this many times on here too.)

I have seen this, I'm sure we all have.

Personally I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things and I listen to those who are better than me and know more than me in a certain area because that's how clever people learn.

If people are saying those who know more are "geeky snobs" (or words to that effect) then it's pretty safe to say they aren't above average themselves.

I disagree. That is the point of my argument. Being smart at something doesn't make you less likely to be an egotist. After all aren't we talking about brilliant arrogant people as the topic of this thread?

After all, you only get better by playing a better opponent...

Arrogant code monkeys, I know plenty of. Arrogant computer scientists, far fewer.

Anyone who manages to complete a grad degree in CS, without having their arse handed to them in at least one course, is probably justified in arrogance...

Personally some of the most humble people I have met are in the mathematics department not the computer science department... I would ask if programmers have such high IQ's like they think most of the time, perhaps they should be doing something harder then programming

Maybe the problem is that you think that 'programming' equates to 'computer science'.

Hint: it doesn't.

Haha and you know it's these kinds of random snipes from the rafters that annoy me, personally. Honestly, it added little to the conversation and was just disrespectful. Not to mention that you just flat out made an assumption. What he said implies that he thinks programming and computer science are the same, but as he made clear afterward, that's not the case. And then there's the fact that most undergraduate computer science majors are, uh, programmers. So his statement still makes sense. I just don't get what fun people derive from tossing in something like this comment. In this case, it's not even that bad. But when I'm asking a question about something that isn't obvious, like a quirk I might've found with the comma operator in C++, and someone has to make a snide remark, it pisses me off.

Lol this reminds me of a quote from Frank Zappa:

"Anyone who spends the formative years of thier life mastering an instrument, is going to have deficincies in other areas."

Same thing to me with programming. Some people just don't know how to talk to people, others use thier superior knowledge to cover up for something else (my opinion). I feel as if I am good with dealing with people, I work in the food industry while I am in school and have to deal with all sorts of a-holes. The other day in fact a customer told me "I was the nicest person they had talked to" at the place I work. I'm not all fluffy and bubbly, just polite, and I took my time with them.To me it really doesn't take that much effort to take a couple extra seconds and be polite with somebody, your time isn't that valuable. Besides, it's probably less about what you know than who you know to get ahead. Be a person that people want to help succeed.

.02c

Are there a lot of rude people in the software industry? Yep. I'd love to tell you that all other industries are only full of shinny, happy people, but I have years of anecdotal evidence that says otherwise.

For example, I worked a few years ago with a brilliant scientist. He did things with code that were amazing. But no one will ever know it, because he is an arrogant prick. He told me once that if I couldn't use his undocumented, untested, constantly changing functional API, it was because I was too stupid. He didn't have time to explain how brilliant it was. And it was amazing code, but no one used it. No one will ever use it, I imagine, if he keeps the same attitude. He will have wasted his carer, in my opinion.

But those people are in any career field you will choose, and the bottom line is that there isn't a damn thing you can do to fix them. That is their journey to make, and their lessons to learn.

So I say, learn how to deal with them (because they aren't going anywhere), and don't become one.

Yep. Programmers tend to be a temperamental bunch. Inflated egos are a given. Weeding out the good from bad is tough. I have no interest in managing a team again.

Arrogant code monkeys, I know plenty of. Arrogant computer scientists, far fewer.

Anyone who manages to complete a grad degree in CS, without having their arse handed to them in at least one course, is probably justified in arrogance...

That's a fair point. I don't know a lot of people with graduate degrees that are nearly as cocky as others with their opinions.

I red somewhere that average programmer has IQ of around 150 and regular average person has IQ of 100. This is indication of above average (very much). In some people these 50 are missing in other areas probably.

My IQ is 128 (not official, but the measurement was almost official, but I had head start in the logical and pattern type tasks), and I wouldn't think I'm a below average programmer at all (okay, you can argue what to call programming). I'm below average in many other things (such are arguing, thinking about life things, understanding peoples explanations, making myself understood, and sadly in my main field, mechanical engineering too).
I think IQ covers too much, so statements like the quoted don't mean too much.

I red somewhere that average programmer has IQ of around 150 and regular average person has IQ of 100. This is indication of above average (very much). In some people these 50 are missing in other areas probably.

My IQ is 128 (not official, but the measurement was almost official, but I had head start in the logical and pattern type tasks), and I wouldn't think I'm a below average programmer at all (okay, you can argue what to call programming). I'm below average in many other things (such are arguing, thinking about life things, understanding peoples explanations, making myself understood, and sadly in my main field, mechanical engineering too).
I think IQ covers too much, so statements like the quoted don't mean too much.

There is no way the average programmer has a 150 IQ.

Not that IQ is that useful when all the rich people abuse it just as hard as they do the SAT.

The problem isn't that experienced programmers are "rude" or "arrogant."

The problem is that too many people have fragile egos.


Computers are brainless. Communicating with them requires an obscene degree of blunt and precise formulation of everything you want to say. It's easy to think that programmers just let this spill over into their human interactions; and while that may be the case sometimes, that's not really the root cause of what you're perceiving as harshness.

Rather, experienced programmers know that you have to have a certain mindset and disciplined focus to be successful as a programmer. We're not being snippy, or abrasive, or short. We're trying to guide people into the correct mentality. There's a huge difference - not necessarily in the way the words lie on the page, but in the motivation behind them.

I hear this kind of complaint a lot on internet groups. The difficulty is that all you have to see are words; and human communication is vastly richer than just words. I can say the exact same words to you in three different ways and you will come away with three very different emotional responses. This is lost in online communications, which is a problem, but not insurmountable.

I used to sit next to a junior programmer (technically SDET) and we'd constantly correct each other during the day. It wasn't some kind of dick-measuring contest or antagonism; in reality, we were sharpening each other and holding each other to extremely high standards of precision and concision in communication. We got along perfectly fine and actually had a great time working together, but if you just isolate out the right subset of our interactions, it'd sound like we were really pissy all the time.


I have a general rule for online communication. You can never accurately judge someone's intent by reading their messages. That means that the reaction to their words is entirely up to you. A lot of younger people seem to not understand this - particularly people who grew up around texting and internet forums and whatever else. It's a shame.

Here's a mental exercise. Next time someone on a forum says something you want to be offended by, stop and ask yourself why you're rubbed the wrong way. Obviously there will be cases where people are deliberately trying to provoke; ignore those for the sake of argument.

For me, 99% of the time (barring blatant trolling), if I'm annoyed or insulted by a post, it's my own problem. I used to routinely get incensed in online discussions until I realized that my own self-absorbed ego was the issue. Walk into a forum with a little humility and suddenly people seem a lot less rude. Funny how that works.


TL;DR: we're not acting this way because we're assholes. We're acting this way because we're trying to treat you like adults who can handle it.

As a wise man once said: anyone can have a run-in with an asshole during the day. If you're having run-ins with assholes all day long, maybe you're the asshole.

Rather, experienced programmers know that you have to have a certain mindset and disciplined focus to be successful as a programmer. We're not being snippy, or abrasive, or short. We're trying to guide people into the correct mentality. There's a huge difference - not necessarily in the way the words lie on the page, but in the motivation behind them.

I agree with some of your post, the idea that communication is not well interpreted online, which is perhaps why it should be better worded when engaging in online communications. This goes for all areas of the internet not just computer science/programming/technical forms.

However. I think there is more then one mindset or even a correct mindset of an experienced programmer, or computer scientist. If there was not anyone to think differently no advancements would be made. While communicating and thinking bluntly works for a computer its not very good for human interaction.