[quote name='DevLiquidKnight' timestamp='1358613747' post='5023198']
Acting like they know everything for one. When they simply reuse code repetitively without knowing what the libraries etc do. It might not matter depending on your job but someone has to write that stuff. And then laughing at someone for wanting to figure out why that works, instead of just coding. This seems a very software-engineer point of view and not one of computer science.
[/quote]

Actually, that's exactly what I've been seeing; people who claim that you're doing something wrong by using a library without knowing how it works internally. Of course people know what a library does if they're using it, or they wouldn't be using it in the first place. But if you want to get things done, you can't possible know what each of them do behind the interface. Some libraries are even, god forbid, proprietary.

Wanting to figure out how something works (apart from using it) is fine, but that's not going to be very productive.

Being honest, I've only ever had problems with those in the art field. I wanted to become an animator moons ago, but returned to programming because art is a field where expectations clash and the final product can be viewed from different angles: one man's poison is another man's wine. I have encountered many "god's gifts" in that area who make you want to give up before you even start.

With programming, its more logical and less emotional. Never had an argument here on GameDev when I first signed in back in...2000? Bloody hell its been THAT long? ARRRHGHHH, I'M OLD! HELP ME!!! O_O

Saying that, although I have always been happy here on GameDev, I have met some during my (distance) degree who have had hissy fits where they started threads like "I hate this module!" and you then reply with "I'm enjoying it and find it easy" only to be leapt upon by a lynch-mob for not being as miserable as they are. Instead of asking why I find it easy and learn something, they just want to hear from those who only agree with them that all is lost...

As "Glass Knife" said, you do get arseholes no matter where you go. As amazing as the brilliant scientist is, his lack of ability to work within a team can only lead to failure down the road. its a shame really, because if that scientist just said "look, I simply do not have enough time to document my work due to lack of support and time constraints" then perhaps it would come to the table that more support is needed. Most who are employed are most likely professional deep down, but completing a job "professionally" is beyond their control. In my own day job I have learnt that no matter how hard I try, I can't do everything to a "professional standard" because of time constraints, someone else screwing up or having no choice but to assist others in their tasks, which leaves no time to do my own...

But anyway...I facking love the lotta ya! Been good to me you 'ave! ^_^

Are there a lot of rude people in the software industry? Yep. I'd love to tell you that all other industries are only full of shinny, happy people, but I have years of anecdotal evidence that says otherwise.

For example, I worked a few years ago with a brilliant scientist. He did things with code that were amazing. But no one will ever know it, because he is an arrogant prick. He told me once that if I couldn't use his undocumented, untested, constantly changing functional API, it was because I was too stupid. He didn't have time to explain how brilliant it was. And it was amazing code, but no one used it. No one will ever use it, I imagine, if he keeps the same attitude. He will have wasted his carer, in my opinion.

But those people are in any career field you will choose, and the bottom line is that there isn't a damn thing you can do to fix them. That is their journey to make, and their lessons to learn.

So I say, learn how to deal with them (because they aren't going anywhere), and don't become one.

I don't know. I've gotten the same schtick when asking questions on a lower level. I honestly feel like in a lot of cases people are really two faced about this. The group looks down upon lower people but gets pissed when one individual is much higher up than them, at the same amount as the person they just trashed is lower, and treats them in the exact same way.

I don't know if its ever felt this way to anyone else here, but in my opinion, its hard to communicate between levels and the only people who don't get shit are the ones glommed around the average level.

Average is relative of course, since the average programmer, or even the average person seriously interested in being a programmer is smarter than a normal person. The only average people, with the "temerity" as I've heard some put it, to imagine themselves as programmers, get shit on for being dumb by the people who will be the middle of the road programmers, while the insanely gifted programmers saw how the average people treated those people, realized that they were that level again smarter than the average and assumed the average people wouldn't be upset about being treated that way since they did it to the below average, and golden rule being assumed the average people were treating others the way they wanted to be treated.

So the below average hate the average, but who cares they are not numerous enough or smart enough to matter to the average group or to put forth the idea that the average group is very hypocritical in their behavior, and the average people really hate the top tier people for treating them the identical way they treat people who are in turn lower than them, and the top tier guy is not numerous enough, irregardless of his knowledge based power, to overcome the numbers based power of the average. Thus below average people are idiots, and above average people are assholes, and average people all tell each other at once how smart they are but that they are also not know it all assholes, when in fact they are but they are blind to it because they control the narrative and human history clearly shows that he who CAN control the narrative WILL control it and make themselves out to be the truly good people.

And if you don't believe me look at the way school age kids act, the children who fall behind are called dumbass losers while the nerdy kids are called suck ups, know it alls, and assholes, and the tyranny of the average makes themselves out to be both valuable for their talents, yet not being assholes. I chose this example because the school experience is perhaps the most universal that I can point to, even if its different for some small portions of the population.

You, Glassknife, may not have the free time to deal with every mediocre person trying to suck your time and knowledge, but I bet you dollars to donuts(damn I've always wanted to say that) that that guy you think is a total self absorbed arrogant jerk feels the exact same way about you!

I know that the idea that social reality is under the tyrannic control of the average isn't popular, but that's kinda redundant to say :)

I knew a person that was working as a project programmer, who was brilliant at his job. He was neither arrogant or rude, he was even working with a team of good professionals who did know how to do their job. But since he was so good at his job some of the programmers constantly asked for additional instructions since they didn't understand everything. They even did this when he cames home from work (go figure).

He earned great respect in the company, but when he switched to the other company. Some ten years younger programmer stepped in his place, and the company got in big problems since he was very arrogant and rude, and also did everything differently just because he wanted to do the things this way.

I personally am constantly in bad luck when it comes to this, I am usually teamed up with someone who can't work in a team and is being eiter arrogant or rude and outright not cooperative. Here on gamedev I did came across some responses that could be considered rude, but I usually interpret this as constructive feedback.

Average is relative of course, since the average programmer, or even the average person seriously interested in being a programmer is smarter than a normal person.

And with this the problems gain a bit more light; the belief that everyone is some how above 'average' who happens to be interested in programming and on this I call bullshit.

The (incorrect) belief however is what fuels the problem; people sit at home, on their own, they code and they think they are so great at everything, they inflate their egos and then, when faced with others and in many cases the truth they AREN'T all special react badly to protect their ego.

The proof of this is quite simple really; if the world was full of above average programmers then these people would be solving their own problems and not asking questions that maybe a few minutes to an hour or two of logical thought might solve. Instead they run to a forum and ask for help without trying to use their brain.

If this had been 20 years ago then yeah, I might have agreed with the statement a bit more as back then if you wanted to learn how to program you got a book, learnt the basics and then tried to fix your own shit because there WASNT a forum sitting around to help you with your trivial problem. (And yes, I am of this generation; my learning was done with a couple of books and example source code which I picked apart, often laying on my bed for hours going over printed out MC68000 assembler code.)

So, no... people interested in programming aren't all above average when it comes to intelligence.

A quick trip around the forums will show you this and if you've been out in the world working you'll also come across them.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't look down on these people or anything like that - about the only problem I have with them loops back to my original point; they sit in their room, convince themselves they are great and then when told they have done it wrong or their assumptions are incorrect react by having a go and then declaring the person who knows more is wrong and blindly carrying on along their foolish path.

(And yes, I've seen this many times on here too.)

Personally I know where I stand in the grand scheme of things and I listen to those who are better than me and know more than me in a certain area because that's how clever people learn.

If people are saying those who know more are "geeky snobs" (or words to that effect) then it's pretty safe to say they aren't above average themselves.

After all, you only get better by playing a better opponent...

Very few people think they're completely stupid, and very few people think they're completely geniuses. But, most of the people think they're a bit more intelligent than the rest (I didn't made that up).

I'd like to give an example about this whole "us programmers are more intelligent" thing.

Once I saw a video gaming forum, it had a poll about intelligence, about how intelligent you the user thought you were. There was no middle point in the choices given, it was something like a lot below average, a little bit below average, a little bit above average, a lot above average.

According to the poll around 80% of the people responded in the upper end of the options.

Users pointed out that the poll should be more balanced since they were using a middle point for comparison, thinking about 100 IQ (when you have 80% of your samples above the middle point, it isn't that in the middle isn't it?). In the same forum there were other polls around the same idea, "Are you more intelligent than the rest of your family?" and so on, again repeating the same kind of results. Everyone thought they were either a bit more intelligent or a lot more intelligent than their peers.

They concluded "well, gamers are an odd sort of people, most of them are very intelligent and this forum is full of intelligent people!". I'm pretty sure that happens often, and I've seen it here and in other forums. Replace "gamers" with programmers, tabletop RPG players, whatever, and you get pretty much the standard response of any group of people or individual about their intelligence.

I think most of these arguments about "who's code is better than who's code" derives from the fact that since the majority of people do have more or less the same mental capabilities, so it isn't that easy to define who is better. Sometimes guy1 codes better, sometimes guy4 knows best, and the fact that who is right varies so often it's what motivates people to argue about it.

And that's not even counting the fact that we have skewed images about ourselves, so even when someone clearly shows he/she knows more, it might not be enough for someone that thinks they're better than they are.

We humans do have prickish attitudes, but while 10% of the time those attitudes lead to arguments, the 90% of the time they help us to get up each morning thinking we're good, that we know our stuff, and so on. It is a necessary evil so we don't fall on a pit of depression constantly.

There are a few Wikipedia articles dealing with such things. One that I like a lot is "Cognitive Biases".

I red somewhere that average programmer has IQ of around 150 and regular average person has IQ of 100. This is indication of above average (very much). In some people these 50 are missing in other areas probably.

Personally some of the most humble people I have met are in the mathematics department not the computer science department. I think this might have to do with the fact that everyone struggles with mathematics at some point.

But then occasionally we would get a person in one of the upper division math courses who was like 17, 18 years old making the rest of us look not nearly as great in comparison. I would ask if programmers have such high IQ's like they think most of the time, perhaps they should be doing something harder then programming. Advanced mathematics and physics come to mind.

[quote name='DevLiquidKnight' timestamp='1358649984' post='5023373']
Personally some of the most humble people I have met are in the mathematics department not the computer science department... I would ask if programmers have such high IQ's like they think most of the time, perhaps they should be doing something harder then programming[/quote]

Maybe the problem is that you think that 'programming' equates to 'computer science'.

Hint: it doesn't.

Maybe the problem is that you think that 'programming' equates to 'computer science'.

Hint: it doesn't.

Yeah, I probably should of made that distinction in my post, I realize the difference but many don't. I think there is a lot of cross over, and maybe that is part of the problem. You get software engineers, programmers, and computer scientists working in the same field.