Well indeed, this is what people are criticising - and others are saying is just scaremongering in that the windowed mode isn't going away.

"shouldn't be the norm" is different from "shouldn't exist at all". In a few years' time, will Office and Visual Studio only be able to run as full screen applications?

As for the general argument - well the flip side is that it's better to have UIs optimised for different purposes. Put it another way, would running Windows 7 on a 4" phone be a good idea, because it's a standardised experience across platforms? Presumably not Should we throw away the mouse and keyboard and only use touchscreen, so it's a standardised experience? Yet we know MS don't plan that for Windows 8.

They could still have the Metro look-and-feel, even with allowing a more flexible windowing system. I mean, Metro will allowed a Tiled window manager, with two applications viewable side by side - like Windows 1.0, and also similar to the old Amiga "screens" you could pull down. Hell, maybe that's what will happen - say by Windows 9, they'll add in full windowing support for Metro, so that things go full circle, and then the old UI can be dropped

It would be nice if they supported desktop apps using only specific parts of the API in the market, but do you really need more than 2 applications per monitor? I think the most apps I ever have viewable on my 2 monitors is 3, maybe 4. After that it gets too cluttered imo.

Then I'll argue for support of creating non-full screen apps in WinRT
[/quote]
WinRT supports this. WinRT != Metro.

Yes but without the native OS API that would be quite a different thing.[/quote]
WinRT is the new native OS API. Windows 8 desktop applications should still use WinRT despite having the winAPI available. There are pieces of WinRT that are only available to metro/desktop, but WinRT is still native.

And it was my understanding there's no IF. We do metro apps. Or Pro stuff.
I guess I missed a few details along the thread?[/quote]
Why can't a Metro app be professional?

but do you really need more than 2 applications per monitor[/quote]

Yes. About 15.

Windows 8 demo comes with about 25 apps on default install, set to always run.

After that it gets too cluttered imo.[/quote]

I can always rearrange them, minimize them, close them. It's up to me.

my 2 monitors[/quote]

Why are you using 2 monitors? One is enough for 83% of users. Disconnect one right now, you don't need it. Statistics also show that average resolution is 1024x768. And that average screen size is 13".

Switch to that right now - it's good enough for everyone, so it's good enough for you.

---

Here's another example: Try to trouble shoot issue and guide some user through a process
- skype (preferably at the side), or any of the alternatives, not everyone uses Skype
- checklist (usually a web app, possibly contains scanned TIFs and PDFs to be downloaded)
- IDE
- email
- time tracker (for billing)
- ticket tracker (Mylin or similar)
- CRM (to know about the customer in question)

Yes, it's possible to do this one a single screen. But it would be a complete nightmare. And this is a very trivial a routine task. It's not even creative, just regular customer support, which is about as low as you can get on complexity scale.

Solution under Metro will be to build all of these into a single-screen app. And it will be done, billed as latest greatest in productivity. Except that due to being unified under a single vendor with single release cycle, it will remain vastly inferior to independent solutions.

Yes. About 15.

Windows 8 demo comes with about 25 apps on default install, set to always run.

I can always rearrange them, minimize them, close them. It's up to me.

well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.

my 2 monitors[/quote]
Why are you using 2 monitors?
[/quote]
Because I'm not 83% of users?

well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.

No, they're applications. Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, Firefox, ...

I just choose to rearrange their visual parts to best fit my current needs.

Because I'm not 83% of users?
[/quote]

Doesn't it then make sense that complaints over "metro being useless" come from the other 17% as well? Or 50%? Or 80%? Or perhaps just 1%.

And is it possible that it's not about "not understanding the new paradigm" it's about actually having needs which Metro either doesn't meet or actively hinders?

[quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1338219148' post='4944050']
well then you aren't really running 15 apps on your two monitors. You're running a couple apps on your monitors with a couple running in the background.

No, they're applications. Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, Firefox, ...

I just choose to rearrange their visual parts to best fit my current needs.[/quote]
So you run Word, Eclipse, Visual Studio, and Firefox on a single monitor with all of them being visible at a single time? How do you even get useful information out of VS when it's being run on a quarter of a monitor? You get to look at the solution explorer and 100 characters of code?

Doesn't it then make sense that complaints over "metro being useless" come from the other 17% as well? Or 50%? Or 80%? Or perhaps just 1%.
[/quote]
Metro has better support for multiple monitors than standard windows starting with the June update to the release preview. I don't understand why Metro is useless for multiple monitors when it has more functionality with multiple monitors than Windows 7.

And is it possible that it's not about "not understanding the new paradigm" it's about actually having needs which Metro either doesn't meet or actively hinders?[/quote]
This is why I asked:

ALL THAT SAID, is there a list somewhere of all the API stuff you won't have access to anymore? I hear a lot of people talking about things they can't do anymore (more places than just here), but by and large it amounts to heresay or very general reasons. Is there any specific list of API functionality that is no longer there? This is a serious question I don't know the answer to, not an argumentative point.[/quote]
I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious. A lot of people, like you, keep saying, "I have needs that Metro doesn't meet," but very few of them are actually saying what those needs are, and at least half of them are 'needs' that are already fully supported by metro applications.

I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious.[/quote]

Did you run it yet?

There's an iso, it installs flawlessly into a virtual machine.

How long did it take until either by choice or due to limitations Metro fell back on desktop?

very few of them are actually saying what those needs are[/quote]

I gave a use case above.

Once you use metro, try to reproduce it without falling back to desktop and standalone applications. After all, Win8 comes with fantastic fully integrated skype and email client, so some of it should work out of box.

I want specifics about what you will no longer be able to do. I am legitimately curious.

Did you run it yet?[/quote]
So no specifics then?

I gave a use case above.
[/quote]
- Skype - run in the background, open when necessary
- Email - run in background, open when necessary
- IDE - run on main screen
- Run these on second or third screen switching between them as necessary just like you would do right now.
* time tracker
* ticket tracker
* CRM
* Checklist

So no specifics then?[/quote]

Install Windows 8 first.

- Skype - run in the background, open when necessary
- Email - run in background, open when necessary
- IDE - run on main screen
- Run these on second or third screen switching between them as necessary just like you would do right now.
* time tracker
* ticket tracker
* CRM
* Checklist[/quote]

OK.

How do you implement Eclipse (or any other IDE) in Metro? Better yet, who will do it, considering Java isn't supported. Or, if not a fan of Eclipse, use Visual Studio.
How do I add time tracker, which is a sidebar widget to always show up.
I cannot put Skype in the background, since I need to watch it to see the user feedback and/or screen cap they are providing.
Email contains various details, passwords and other correspondence related to the problem, I need to have access to it, switching left and right isn't possible.
Checklist is a list that you follow, step-by-step, it needs to be present next to everything else. Current system is browser-based.
CRM is another list which needs to be present, it contains cross-references of the person I'm dealing with, along with their account information, runs in second browser window.


Once you install and run Windows 8, you'll see why the above doesn't work. Metro is the square things on the startup. Desktop is the thing with taskbar at bottom. Arguments here are about why pushing Metro as the only thing doesn't come even close to a replacement for desktop.

And above doesn't require multiple screens, it works, if need be, on a single HD laptop screen. Which is kinda important, if doing on-site work.



If Windows 8 works for you, fine. This isn't about theoretical doability - we could as well be using paper mail - it's about how unusable new interface is for tasks and applications which are the norm.

And above doesn't require multiple screens, it works, if need be, on a single HD laptop screen. Which is kinda important, if doing on-site work.

How do you do that all on a single HD laptop screen with windows 7? You edit code in an IDE, while watching a skype screencap/share, while a time tracker widget takes up part of your screen, while having your CRM open somewhere on your screen, while having your ticket tracker somewhere on your screen, and a checklist somewhere also. That is quite honestly fud. There is no way you'd have that much stuff open on a laptop screen and actually have any of it be useful; period.

If you are minimizing, maximizing, resizing, and refocussing windows you can do all that with metro just fine. You can have metro running in one window and desktop in another. You can run metro and desktop in the same window simultaneously. You can switch between metro and desktop practically instantly on a single monitor if you don't want them sharing space.

Arguments here are about why pushing Metro as the only thing doesn't come even close to a replacement for desktop.[/quote]
Wat? There's a tremendous difference between pushing something as the primary thing and pushing something as the only thing.

If Windows 8 works for you, fine. This isn't about theoretical doability - we could as well be using paper mail - it's about how unusable new interface is for tasks and applications which are the norm.[/quote]
At what point did what you describe become the norm?

Erm... wtf are you all going on about in this thread?

People seem to be doing the wonderful straw man of 'X does not fit Y therefore Y is useless'.

Metro is just a way of arranging data.
Win32/'classic' desktop is just a way of arranging data.

For some apps the former will work best, for some apps the latter.
We are not in an 'either or' situation on the desktop, you can have both types of applications installed and running.

The arguements against Metro as being 'not suitable for IDE development' are utter rubbish because this is not what Metro is there for.
Metro is for a class of apps which are best served by being full screen run only one at a time type apps; now many apps could fit into both frames, I could see Word 2013 being released in both Metro and 'classic' formats and for some people the Metro fullscreen version will be just fine as they only want to work on one document at a time.

Windows 8 also deals with a multi-screen setup fine.
The Metro Start Screen defaults to your primary monitor, the secondary one shows the rest of the desktop.
About the only annoying thing right now (well, in the preview version anyway) is that hitting start kills the whole primary monitor - it would be nice if you could set it to open on one side by default much like how you can drag an app to the side of the primary monitor and have it sit there while you use a standard desktop app on the rest.