Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/ - making good points about the "desktop" still being of use. Also makes an interesting point about people wanting to learn programming - since command line apps are also out on Express, it means writing your first Hello World isn't an option (though to be fair, one could argue that if Metro is easy enough to use, maybe newbies could jump straight into writing simple graphical apps - but I don't know if that will be the case).

They also make the point that it's not just the IDE that is out - there won't be a compiler in the Windows 8 SDK at all, so even running from command line, or using alternative IDEs with the VC compiler, is out.

(ETA: I love how every one of the MS blog posts gets 4 or 5 stars, but the one with the news has 1 star...]

[quote name='mdwh' timestamp='1337868756' post='4942897']
So it seems that people are correct to worry that MS wants to move people away from the windowed UI (both a worry in that some people don't want to have to always run everything full screen; and that the new Metro means MS have control over the software distribution). We can hope that enough developers won't like it that it'll have the same effect as .Net, but the fears are still valid, and not FUD or scaremongering.

I think it's reasonable to worry to some extent about how easily you're going to be able to write native executables in standard C++ to Windows in the future -- if that's something you care about. But who knows WinRT might be a gigantic failure. I mean .Net was successful and never really effected my ability to do regular Windows programming or even to get regular windows programming jobs.[/quote]True

(Unless the new WinRT can still create windowed apps, something I'm still not clear on.)
[/quote]
Don't think you can. But Antheus has it right above ... WinRT is like the kernel and Metro is the UI. If WInRT is successful and becomes the future of Microsoft etc., they'll probably implement another UI that is more like desktop windows but runs on top of RT.
[/quote]We can hope. But one can understand the confusion - if Win32 is already being branded as deprecated, when there's no sign of any such alternative UI for WinRT, and it's unclear how standard C++ can be used with WinRT.

But then, maybe we're reading too much into it - was .Net introduced as replacing Win32?

Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/ - making good points about the "desktop" still being of use. Also makes an interesting point about people wanting to learn programming - since command line apps are also out on Express, it means writing your first Hello World isn't an option (though to be fair, one could argue that if Metro is easy enough to use, maybe newbies could jump straight into writing simple graphical apps - but I don't know if that will be the case).

That's probably the worst part is that if you want to just like practice coding or something you have to wrap everything in a metro app. On the plus side it really isn't that hard to make a hello world graphical app (somebody posted a video of making a graphical hello world in the current ide in like a minute, and I think metro is about the same in VS).

Still sucks though. At least they have Dreamspark still, because 90% of my student projects were in some way command line based.

was .Net introduced as replacing Win32?

No, not officially, but then Microsoft corporate announcements and so forth don't ever mention the name "Win32" so it's hard to say. The thing was .Net was always on top of Win32 whereas WinRT isn't. What I remember was that with each new and better release of .Net you'd hear these rumors about how the forthcoming release wasn't going to be on top of Win32 anymore.

Ars has an interesting write up on this: http://arstechnica.c...d-on-windows-8/

So after reading the article and the entire comment thread it seems like the largest risk is generally for hobby developers or professionals without MSDN licenses. Being the latter I share that concern.

However, a lot of people are taking for granted that desktop applications shouldn't be the norm anymore in Windows 8. As painful as it will be moving to a new paradigm, it is a paradigm that will net in greater access for content creators to consumers, and more satisfied consumers because of a standardized experience across applications.

That new paradigm is actually cheaper to develop for on the new platform than the old paradigm is to develop for on the old platform in a lot of respects.

I think time would be better spent arguing for support of necessary features in WinRT rather than arguing for further support of desktop apps. WinRT is imo a step in the right direction despite some missteps that are currently making that step seem undesirable.

ALL THAT SAID, is there a list somewhere of all the API stuff you won't have access to anymore? I hear a lot of people talking about things they can't do anymore (more places than just here), but by and large it amounts to heresay or very general reasons. Is there any specific list of API functionality that is no longer there? This is a serious question I don't know the answer to, not an argumentative point.

I'm still thinking at this.
I've had a quite positive experience with Code::Blocks recently. Perhaps I might try converting everything to it a day. In the meanwhile, I am worried.
C++ is possibly in the worst situation possible. After all, C++ is used because it is "native", now that "native" is bad, I wonder why to keep C++ in the first place. I'd drop it completely (intending no VC++ Express at all) rather than giving it a mutilated IDE.

This thing makes no sense at all.

I'm still thinking at this.
I've had a quite positive experience with Code::Blocks recently. Perhaps I might try converting everything to it a day. In the meanwhile, I am worried.
C++ is possibly in the worst situation possible. After all, C++ is used because it is "native", now that "native" is bad, I wonder why to keep C++ in the first place. I'd drop it completely (intending no VC++ Express at all) rather than giving it a mutilated IDE.

C++ is still native. It just doesn't have access to the same API as it did before if you develop a metro app.

Still curious if anyone knows more specifically how different WinRT is vs the win Api we have now :-?

Yes but without the native OS API that would be quite a different thing.
And it was my understanding there's no IF. We do metro apps. Or Pro stuff.
I guess I missed a few details along the thread?

I don't see the problem here. Why?

1) WinRT is new, its what's next, you should learn it or experience it, if you care about Windows 8 or Microsoft products. Just as you should have with .Net

2) Programmers work with technology, technology is always moving/advancing/changing. Aren't you used to this already? Learning is part of the job, right?

3) If you program, you probably aren't in charge. You have been doing what you are told for how long now? If you are told to use JavaScript, BASIC, Fortran or the next uberawesomestScripting language, you either do it or find another job.

4) If you don't like it, there is always something else, other tools and other platforms. Mac, iOS, Android, Linux, Browsers, etc...

5) You can complain, it won't do anything, it never has and it never will. Things change, move along or be left out.

Isn't it time for a change already?

However, a lot of people are taking for granted that desktop applications shouldn't be the norm anymore in Windows 8. As painful as it will be moving to a new paradigm, it is a paradigm that will net in greater access for content creators to consumers, and more satisfied consumers because of a standardized experience across applications.

Well indeed, this is what people are criticising - and others are saying is just scaremongering in that the windowed mode isn't going away.

"shouldn't be the norm" is different from "shouldn't exist at all". In a few years' time, will Office and Visual Studio only be able to run as full screen applications?

As for the general argument - well the flip side is that it's better to have UIs optimised for different purposes. Put it another way, would running Windows 7 on a 4" phone be a good idea, because it's a standardised experience across platforms? Presumably not Should we throw away the mouse and keyboard and only use touchscreen, so it's a standardised experience? Yet we know MS don't plan that for Windows 8.

They could still have the Metro look-and-feel, even with allowing a more flexible windowing system. I mean, Metro will allowed a Tiled window manager, with two applications viewable side by side - like Windows 1.0, and also similar to the old Amiga "screens" you could pull down. Hell, maybe that's what will happen - say by Windows 9, they'll add in full windowing support for Metro, so that things go full circle, and then the old UI can be dropped

I think time would be better spent arguing for support of necessary features in WinRT rather than arguing for further support of desktop apps. WinRT is imo a step in the right direction despite some missteps that are currently making that step seem undesirable.[/quote]Then I'll argue for support of creating non-full screen apps in WinRT

I don't see the problem here. Why?

1) WinRT is new, its what's next, you should learn it or experience it, if you care about Windows 8 or Microsoft products. Just as you should have with .Net

2) Programmers work with technology, technology is always moving/advancing/changing. Aren't you used to this already? Learning is part of the job, right?

It's that it's what's next is why people are worried. No one is complaining about having to learn something new - they're complaining about what the new thing is.

It isn't that WinRT is new; it's that WinRT means only Metro, which means only full screen phablet apps. Phones and tablets are great, but not everyone is writing software only for them. When I tried out the Windows 8 preview, I was excited - the idea of having the same core OS, with UIs optimised for different devices, is a brilliant one. But people telling me I should be running full-screen all the time, and the "desktop" should be lost? I'm not so sure...

Also see the ars article I linked - it means that MS no longer support free software development, and the Metro future is one completely locked down (like Apple IOS) and controlled by MS.

4) If you don't like it, there is always something else, other tools and other platforms. Mac, iOS, Android, Linux, Browsers, etc...[/quote]Yes some people have said they'll use Mac OS or Linux - I think that counts as part of the criticism of Windows 8!

5) You can complain, it won't do anything, it never has and it never will. Things change, move along or be left out.[/quote]By that logic, no one should complain about anything.

Isn't it time for a change already?[/quote]"We need something new, this is new, therefore we should do this".

It's interesting that that argument is so often used when it comes to discussing UIs. Why do we have to change back to the windowing UI capability of Windows 1.0?

Oh, btw - metro apps can only be distributed over Microsoft app store.

So once you write an app, there are two choices:
- request a fixed number of tokens for users (a token for John, one for Jane), so that they will be able to install your app
- submit app to the store, wait for review, etc...


This isn't new, it's how Apple ecosystem works.

What iOS/OSX still offer is ability to develop non-iOS/non-appstore applications considerably cheaper ($99 license covers everything), then you're free to distribute anything you want, iOS or desktop.

Same thing for Windows will now cost $600, plus whatever the license may cost to publish the application (cost of certificate).