I think this thread is way digressing... as the original post asked, "What would you substitute for killing?"

Hase, I think you paint a pretty picture, but it''s not something that is technologically possible right now. Sure, it would be nice if you could approach any problem with an infinite number of angles like you can in real life. But how do you program that? Games right now are limited by the number of events scripted into their engines and environments.

One approach to get around this problem is to model an environment and its physical rules, rather than relying on scripting discreet actions.

For example, here''s a good story I heard about Ultima 6... if you haven''t played this game, you should check it out... one of the things you could do was throw objects around in your field of view, you didn''t have to drop things solely on the tile you were standing on. So in one dungeon there is a chasm, and a lever on the other side of this chasm that lowers a drawbridge. The designer of this puzzle intended the player to use the "telekinesis" spell to trigger the lever... well, one of the beta testers got to this puzzle and didn''t have the spell. So what he did was kill a member of his party, then pick up the body and throw it over the chasm, then cast resurrection on that character, and then finally have that character pull the lever! This is a perfect example of a robust and complex game engine allowing unforseen consequences.

However... it has absolutely dick to do with what to replace combat with in an RPG game. Now let''s get back on topic.

quote: Original post by Riva
about post from Hase (10 October 2001)

The idea about 10 ways to get rid of the Troll is fine, but you are practicaly saying - dont make rpg, make it adventure.

I think that you may be forgetting a fundamental difference between a cRPG and an adventure game. I think if Hase''s idea is made repeatable so that the player encounters it in a wide variety of situations, then just as is the case for combat it will become another problem solving tool.

Typically, in an adventure game you encounter a puzzle with a specific set of solutions. You normally encounter this puzzle only once, as an adventure game is measured in part by the variety of clever puzzles you have.

Combat, in the most abstract sense, is also a puzzle. You have to figure out the best objects to use, in what sequence, and in what way, on both yourself and your enemy, over time. Yes, this stretches the definition of "puzzle," but it still basically holds.

If stealth, for example, is part of the world, and the player can continuously use it in certain circumstances, then stealth complements and helps substitute for combat. The same could be said of the other possibilities Hase & others have suggested.

The other key difference between cRPGs and adventure games, besides repeatability, is resource investment. Stat or skill building, made as a result of accumulated rewards (gold, xp, cybermodules, whatever), let the player choose what type of game they want to play. Normally, an adventure game player doesn''t have this option. If there are obstacles, normally they have to face them, and can rarely choose how they want to face them. With stat / skill investment, cRPG players aren''t so confined.



I think that if you reject alternate activities, you''ll be rejecting all possible alternatives. In a cRPG, you have to do something, and normally that''s problem solving and character building. How you do this, is just a matter of what activities you''re willing to make into fun, repeatable systems.

quote:
Ok and i have one more idea (so you cant say im just askin a questios ) - what about something like Messiah ? Main hero can be ghost on the beginnig which means all he can do is hovering around and POSSES any living creature depending from his inner energy. So he start with 1pt of enery - he can get controll of something like squirrel. As squirrel he can move around and do some task (dont know what - this is the point i dont have any idea about ): to get more essence points so he ca posses some higher creatures (like sprites and after that finaly humans etc.)

This, btw, if you only did it once, would be an adventure game puzzle. Done multiple times, with some kind of resource behind it (mana, skill, xp, whatever) is, I think, what makes it into a cRPG activity.


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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by bishop_pass
I am not sure this proposal is a solution to what is wrong with RPGs. I think this type of thinking only transplants the problem into new options, as opposed to bringing a conceptually different experience to the player.

I really see no difference in clicking my character's mouth and wielding my conversation skill against another character and clicking my sword and wielding my fighting ability against another character.

As I said earlier, I think it is time for developers to move away from this stat/skill paradigm and focus more on giving the player the ability to personify within his character real skills through mechanisms which would enable that character to become an integrated element of a larger social infrastructure.

While I like your idea in the other thread (so much so that I couldn't think of anything to add! ), I think that it only externally gets away from stats and skills. That stats and skills aren't externally represented might make a big difference to the player, but at some point you must expose the values to the player, so that they know their position in the game. In putting ideas such as "influence" or "respect" or "political favors owed" into a game, and giving the player a network of psuedo-relationships to navigate and move through, you still have to give them: activities and options, and some way of manipulating resources, all that influence a story or milieu.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that even if you get away from representing stats, you still have to represent actions and resources numerically, even if you hide it from the player. Abstractly, there's a similarity between having three allies who's political skill helps you become leader, and three allies whose combat, lockpicking, and magick skills help you also attain the throne.








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Just waiting for the mothership...


Edited by - Wavinator on October 12, 2001 9:16:27 PM

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
The designer of this puzzle intended the player to use the "telekinesis" spell to trigger the lever... well, one of the beta testers got to this puzzle and didn''t have the spell. So what he did was kill a member of his party, then pick up the body and throw it over the chasm, then cast resurrection on that character, and then finally have that character pull the lever! This is a perfect example of a robust and complex game engine allowing unforseen consequences.

LOL!!!! That brings up a good question. I actually DO think this is a substitute for combat, but it brings up two major problems:

How do you set up obstacles in front of the player, particularly as they gain more objects, abilities, and options?

How do you prevent an absurd case like the one above, that obviously breaks suspension of disbelief.

The answer to the first may be to go with a kind of magnitude approach, where objects and actions scale in power. If you give them a crowbar that can break windows, for instance, then you make certain windows metal laced; if you give them a lockpick, then you create levels of both locks and picks, and only make some available. And you never give them something like a bazooka...

There may be no answer to the second other than rigorous testing, and designing a system that is as complete as you can make it, without it being overwhelming. (The paradox being that the more complete you make it, the more likely you are to have unintended, untested consequences.)


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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator
Basically, what I''m trying to say is that even if you get away from representing stats, you still have to represent actions and resources numerically, even if you hide it from the player. Abstractly, there''s a similarity between having three allies who''s political skill helps you become leader, and three allies whose combat, lockpicking, and magick skills help you also attain the throne.

Yeah, but what I am trying to promote, without an explicit example, because it likely doesn''t exist, is to do away with the stats completely. Or at least to the point that they are not attached to any one player''s set of abilities.

In other words, there is no stat called political skill. I want the player to be politically skilled, not some number defining the player''s political skill. I don''t really see this working in the context of a offline single RPG, but in a MMORPG.

The player does not manipulate a resource with a stat laden skill. Rather, the player manipulates other players (resources) with his ability to organize and persuade. In theory, if the game''s internal mechanisms are designed properly, the players will be able to build organizations which work based on a multi-noded network of information and product flow. The nodes, of course, are the players. The information is intelligence, propoganda, journalistic reporting, speeches, and advertising. Note that the information is real data or written words, and typically manufactured by the players. The products are game objects which enhance the player and infrastructure''s abilities.

the problem here is you want to take killing monsters out of a genre of game that bases 90% of it''s gameplay on doing so. i know, some games have been made where the monster-bashing was obfuscated into "paper-rocks-scissors" or playing checkers... but the fact remains that in computer RPGs, you find a few items, go through a few mazes, talk to some people, and spend the rest of your time (most of it) killing things to get experience and money. if you don''t, everyone complains that it is an adventure game, not an RPG.
i dont see what the big problem is with just making an adventure game, then. so what if you lose the "i want to stay up all night getting to level 99 so i can kill bigger ogres faster" group; i''m sure a game where your character gets smarter when he tricks a troll or guard, stronger when he climbs something, and sneakier when he manages to avoid the whole problem, would be great.
if you are hung up on "there must be something boring and repetitive to gain levels, and it can''t be fighting" then you oughtta just make it fighting anyways, but make the graphics look like your character is rolling dice against the bad guys.
hey, that''s an idea...
i like the idea about just making a world where anything goes, and you just define the rules things work by; unfortunately this would end up being no where near an RPG (although it might become closer if each action, in addition to possibly solving some problem/quest, gave the player some points for something, like strength or cleverness or whatever)...


--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

What''s up with this rigid determination that an RPG is "a game in which you kill stuff"?

It''s a ROLEplaying game. So you play a role. It''s not a TROLLslaying game (okay that was pretty bad, but hey...).

Removing violence or stats and skills doesn''t not make it a roleplaying game any longer.

Michael Heilemann
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Designer on Singularity - Sysop at Nerve Impulse
Let us never allow ourselves the sin of forgetting our dreams!

In response to my idea of providing more options:

quote: Original post by bishop_pass
I think this type of thinking only transplants the problem into new options, as opposed to bringing a conceptually different experience to the player.
[...]

Yeah, but what I am trying to promote, without an explicit example, because it likely doesn''t exist, is to do away with the stats completely.

I think you´re trying to go too far, too fast. RPGs are essentially about playing a role, and that role has to be both different from the players own identity (or it wouldn´t be as much fun, I can be me in real life every day) and customiseable by the player. And then you have to act on the traits and abilities of the persona you created and shaped. That´s what RPGs are about, in their core essence.

The adventures in RPGs will always be of the problem solving type, and I think there is nothing wrong with that. What you are suggesting is a different genre entirely.

quote: Original post by krez
the problem here is you want to take killing monsters out of a genre of game that bases 90% of it''s gameplay on doing so.

Contrary to the original post I´m not so sure that is even a good idea. The troubles of the genre don´t come from heroes killing monsters, but from heroes doing nothing BUT killing monsters. If you provide enough equal-valued alternatives to mindless hack and slay, then players will explore those possibilites, no matter if they are abstract or scripted.

To see Hase''s idea in action play Icewind Dale or Baldur''s Gate 2. They are both really fun games. Like in Icewind Dale there''s a part where you go into a place and there''s about 4 orges. It''s a small room and you''re in a bad position to be fighting. The leader orge wants you to give him money or he says he''s gonna kill you. You can give him the money he wants, try to plead with him, or make some kind of remark to him that will make him mad. I gave him the money he wanted so they wouldn''t attack me. Then I positioned my people in the room to where I would have the fighting advantage, killed them all and took my money back.

quote: Original post by Wavinator
I think that you may be forgetting a fundamental difference between a cRPG and an adventure game. I think if Hase''s idea is made repeatable so that the player encounters it in a wide variety of situations, then just as is the case for combat it will become another problem solving tool.

Well right I didnt think of it this way. (sorry Hase ) Yes i can imagine game where you have say 20 tools (options) like: talk, steal, fight, get, give ... and you can apply (at last try to) in any situation on any object. Sometimes it will not give much sense talking to tree but that again it may have same result as takin to stupid troll And the rest on player and his imagination where and how will he use it.

More later (maybe) (when i finish that damm character design for next prj )