Well, I'm done arguing.
All I wanted was to get a glimpse into the minds of why no one likes game design in indy.

You all can keep on creating garbage indy games since you don't have any designers (since you dont understand their great value) in your games.
That's fine by me, Less competition

Nice.
50 million downloads disagree that our games are garbage. ;)
We work from an interaction idea, then evolve, evolve, evolve, until we have a fun game to play.
Everyone is part of the game design. Play-testing drives everything.

We all love game design.
We think we are fairly competent in interaction design too.
Though of course we have specialists that do the actual graphical and interaction design, with input from everyone.
Just as the graphical artists have input on what to implement in code.

Game design in a shared role, because that is the best way to keep motivation up in the whole team.
Seems to work so far.

glhf, you should read Code Complete by Steve McConnell. You should also brush up on a few concepts, notably the concept of a Wicked Problem. McConnell levels some criticism toward the top-down waterfall approach in his book, describing waterfall design as one of those Wicked Problems that can not be fully solved up front. I promise you, there has never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, ever been a perfect up front design for anything non-trivial, since the human race began. Ever. No matter how good a designer is, the project will change. If you think otherwise, you are just fooling yourself.

Every single post you make only reinforces my knowledge that you have no idea about real world software development. None whatsoever. And yet you continue to prate and prattle like you have a single clue what you are talking about. You do not.

Engine decisions absolutely must inform game design decisions. Design must compromise around what is and is not possible given available engine tech and budget/time considerations. Design can say, "We need a fully featured, 100% scale simulation of the entire universe." That's pretty easy to say, design-wise. Engine-wise, it's not so easy, and if your answer is "The programmer could even chose to create a new engine if he thinks it's more efficient." then your project will fail.

If you try to build a game 100% up front, you will fail. If you try to build a game as a dictator would, telling the staff to make your vision come true with no consideration to their input, telling them that design is god and king, then you will fail. Failure is written all over every single one of your posts. Take that as a personal attack if you wish. People have been arguing and discussing with you, trying to help you, but you refuse to accept any criticism or any viewpoint that is counter to your own.

Now, prove us wrong. Go away for awhile and come back with a completed game. Give us an (honest) post-mortem. Give us evidence that what you say is the One True Way, and then maybe we'll start showing you a bit more respect. Until then, you are just a babbling poseur.

I disagree.
And about desiging around a engine etc...
That depends on so many unknown factors..
What kind of team he will get to make the game..
Any publisher.. budget? no budget? how big team? etc

50 million downloads disagree that our games are garbage. ;)

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!

glhf, this is a interesting article related to your thread: http://uk.gamespot.com/features/so-you-wanna-be-a-game-designer-6129276/

Quote: "Game development is an extremely iterative, collaborative process. A designer who sits off in a corner by himself writing a game design doc is going to be pretty shocked at the reaction he gets when he gives it to the team to "figure out." Great games are great because they leverage all the tools at hand: people, technology, design, art, etc."

1. It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
2. The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
3. There shouldn't be anything about trust in business..

1. Yes. I said that it is not only the OP who misunderstands that trust in the game designer is a prerequisite. I know you aren't the only one who doesn't see this.
2. It's the game designer's job to make himself understood. And trusted.
3. Business is ALL about trust. There must be trust, else there can be no business.

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!
[/quote]

Let's back off from the high emotionality. I think this is an important discussion, but if it gets vituperative, I'll shut it down.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334936158' post='4933250']
1. It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
2. The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
3. There shouldn't be anything about trust in business..

1. Yes. I said that it is not only the OP who misunderstands that trust in the game designer is a prerequisite. I know you aren't the only one who doesn't see this.
2. It's the game designer's job to make himself understood. And trusted.
3. Business is ALL about trust. There must be trust, else there can be no business.

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!
[/quote]

Let's back off from the high emotionality. I think this is an important discussion, but if it gets vituperative, I'll shut it down.
[/quote]

Completely wrong on all points.
I am not misunderstanding anything.
People don't always understand stuff, I don't think you have experience in this since from looking at your site you seem to be more of a consultnt for non-indy studios and stuff.. it's completely different.
And busines is not about trust. It's about statistics and research and predictions.. emotions are what kills business.
People who don't understand the game design but decides to just trust the game designer is stupid.

Excuse my spelling but I'm getting really bored because this thread seems to just repeat its arguments over and over.

And busines is not about trust. It's about statistics and research and predictions.. emotions are what kills business.

Okay, I wasn't going to comment any further on this thread but... wow, just wow.

It's exactly this mindset that is killing businesses. Business has a very strong emotional/psychological/call it whatever component to it. Let me just say I wouldn't want to work for you, ever.

[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1334943082' post='4933296']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334936158' post='4933250']
1. It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
2. The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
3. There shouldn't be anything about trust in business..

1. Yes. I said that it is not only the OP who misunderstands that trust in the game designer is a prerequisite. I know you aren't the only one who doesn't see this.
2. It's the game designer's job to make himself understood. And trusted.
3. Business is ALL about trust. There must be trust, else there can be no business.

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!
[/quote]

Let's back off from the high emotionality. I think this is an important discussion, but if it gets vituperative, I'll shut it down.
[/quote]

Completely wrong on all points.
I am not misunderstanding anything.
People don't always understand stuff, I don't think you have experience in this since from looking at your site you seem to be more of a consultnt for non-indy studios and stuff.. it's completely different.
And busines is not about trust. It's about statistics and research and predictions.. emotions are what kills business.
People who don't understand the game design but decides to just trust the game designer is stupid.

Excuse my spelling but I'm getting really bored because this thread seems to just repeat its arguments over and over.
[/quote]

Every business is about trust. You pay a price, and you trust that you will get a return. You hire a developer, you trust he can get the job done. You buy a product, you trust that it will be the product you expect. You order online, you trust that the product will be sent to you. No business gets an instant return on investment. You invest in something, you trust that you will get something out at the end which was worth the investment. Trust does not equate to emotionality.

With regards to emotions, if you don't put your emotions into the game you produce you're not going to get an emotive response out of them.

glhf, the problem you seem to have with this thread, is that everyone agrees that game design is important. Not everyone agrees that having a "dedicated game designer" is a necessity. You don't seem to understand that having a miraculous Game Design Document is not the same as having a good game designer. Having a game designer that refuses to make changes to his design is the worst thing you could have. If you try to work as a designer with that mindset, you're not going to get very far.

[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334943967' post='4933299']
[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1334943082' post='4933296']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334936158' post='4933250']
1. It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
2. The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
3. There shouldn't be anything about trust in business..

1. Yes. I said that it is not only the OP who misunderstands that trust in the game designer is a prerequisite. I know you aren't the only one who doesn't see this.
2. It's the game designer's job to make himself understood. And trusted.
3. Business is ALL about trust. There must be trust, else there can be no business.

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!
[/quote]

Let's back off from the high emotionality. I think this is an important discussion, but if it gets vituperative, I'll shut it down.
[/quote]

Completely wrong on all points.
I am not misunderstanding anything.
People don't always understand stuff, I don't think you have experience in this since from looking at your site you seem to be more of a consultnt for non-indy studios and stuff.. it's completely different.
And busines is not about trust. It's about statistics and research and predictions.. emotions are what kills business.
People who don't understand the game design but decides to just trust the game designer is stupid.

Excuse my spelling but I'm getting really bored because this thread seems to just repeat its arguments over and over.
[/quote]

Every business is about trust. You pay a price, and you trust that you will get a return. You hire a developer, you trust he can get the job done. You buy a product, you trust that it will be the product you expect. You order online, you trust that the product will be sent to you. No business gets an instant return on investment. You invest in something, you trust that you will get something out at the end which was worth the investment. Trust does not equate to emotionality.

With regards to emotions, if you don't put your emotions into the game you produce you're not going to get an emotive response out of them.

glhf, the problem you seem to have with this thread, is that everyone agrees that game design is important. Not everyone agrees that having a "dedicated game designer" is a necessity. You don't seem to understand that having a miraculous Game Design Document is not the same as having a good game designer. Having a game designer that refuses to make changes to his design is the worst thing you could have. If you try to work as a designer with that mindset, you're not going to get very far.
[/quote]

Says you who don't even understand business.

When I pay a price and expect a return it's not based on trust.
It's because I've done my research that shows a high chance of getting the return.

When I hire a developer, I don't trust he can get the job done.
I check his portfolio and question him and ask for a CV to see if he has the qualifications and experience to get the job done.

etc

[quote name='PyroDragn' timestamp='1334946750' post='4933311']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334943967' post='4933299']
[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1334943082' post='4933296']
[quote name='glhf' timestamp='1334936158' post='4933250']
1. It's not me that is having hard time understanding.
2. The team working with the game designer doesn't have to trust him.. They have to understand him.
3. There shouldn't be anything about trust in business..

1. Yes. I said that it is not only the OP who misunderstands that trust in the game designer is a prerequisite. I know you aren't the only one who doesn't see this.
2. It's the game designer's job to make himself understood. And trusted.
3. Business is ALL about trust. There must be trust, else there can be no business.

50 million downloads!!! You're a shining example of what starting indy developers like me dream to be!
[/quote]

Let's back off from the high emotionality. I think this is an important discussion, but if it gets vituperative, I'll shut it down.
[/quote]

Completely wrong on all points.
I am not misunderstanding anything.
People don't always understand stuff, I don't think you have experience in this since from looking at your site you seem to be more of a consultnt for non-indy studios and stuff.. it's completely different.
And busines is not about trust. It's about statistics and research and predictions.. emotions are what kills business.
People who don't understand the game design but decides to just trust the game designer is stupid.

Excuse my spelling but I'm getting really bored because this thread seems to just repeat its arguments over and over.
[/quote]

Every business is about trust. You pay a price, and you trust that you will get a return. You hire a developer, you trust he can get the job done. You buy a product, you trust that it will be the product you expect. You order online, you trust that the product will be sent to you. No business gets an instant return on investment. You invest in something, you trust that you will get something out at the end which was worth the investment. Trust does not equate to emotionality.

With regards to emotions, if you don't put your emotions into the game you produce you're not going to get an emotive response out of them.

glhf, the problem you seem to have with this thread, is that everyone agrees that game design is important. Not everyone agrees that having a "dedicated game designer" is a necessity. You don't seem to understand that having a miraculous Game Design Document is not the same as having a good game designer. Having a game designer that refuses to make changes to his design is the worst thing you could have. If you try to work as a designer with that mindset, you're not going to get very far.
[/quote]

Says you who don't even understand business.

When I pay a price and expect a return it's not based on trust.
It's because I've done my research that shows a high chance of getting the return.

When I hire a developer, I don't trust he can get the job done.
I check his portfolio and question him and ask for a CV to see if he has the qualifications and experience to get the job done.

etc
[/quote]

High chance of getting the return. High chance of return = low chance of failure. You could make the choice as logically as you like. But you still do not get instant return, and you have to trust that the return will come in the end. If you design a game, and you hand it off to a developer to be made, you have to trust him to make it. You can do your research, and you can choose the best developer in the world; You can minimise the risk, but without instant return there is always trust involved.

You expect a return on your investment. Your judgement is not based on unfounded trust. But it still requires trust.