Yes, well, if it stopped there then it wouldn't be a problem.

But it doesn't, you have people in power making choices based on something in a book and these choices have massive impact on many millions of people and are NOT logical nor in the best intrests of the population.

I'm not especially pleased with anyone in power regardless of their beliefs. This is not the fault of religion.

People teaching abstinence over safe sex,[/quote]

the Pope coming out against the use of condoms in Africa,[/quote]
The pope's quote was taken hugely out of context. It is not a, "If you're going to have sex, don't use a condom," statement. It was a, "Stop having sex in non-committed relationships," statement. I see nothing wrong with encouraging people to be respectful of the act rather than just doing what feels good. This is coming from someone that doesn't even agree that condoms are bad.

Bush claiming he was on a 'mission from god' during the Iraq war,[/quote]
Who knew politicians use rhetoric. We all know that on the long list of reasons for which we went to Iraq, Bush legitimately believing he was on a mission from God is no where near the top of the list.

other examples
[/quote]
Listen, extremist fundamentalism is bad. It is not religion's fault that extreme fundamentalism exists. Do I beat up people outside of abortion clinics? Do I call parents whose children just died in Iraq and tell them their kids are faggots that are burning in hell? I don't even believe in creationism. Should I be looked down on because some idiots happen to be vocal with their idiocy? Many of these people are also American. Many of them are also white. Should we think that all white people beat up people outside abortion clinics? Do all american's charge people's funerals to tell people the recently deceased were horrible people? Of course not. So why is it acceptable to blame religion the same way?

If you ran into a Sudanese person on the street would the first thought that jumped into your mind be, "He's a genocidal murderer," because of what happened in Darfur? Do you think all North Koreans are absolutely insane?

There are religious, scientific, and political extremists. Hell, there are even video game and technological extremists. There have been murders in the name of all of these. Are all of them inherently bad? Why only religion?

edit: to save space putting this here:

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.[/font]

My counter argument would be that the latter 'good people' are not 'good people'. Doing evil in the name of religion does not make them in line with what the religion teaches.

Some days the world just hands you things at the right time; a friend on facebook posted this link up;
Source

I'm concerned that my son has a secret girlfriend?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 17 year old son has been very secretive with me lately, recently he has started to refuse to go to church with the family and tonight when I was going through his room I found a magazine with naked men in it. He obviously has a girlfriend that he is hiding from me that brought that magazine into my home and I am afraid they are having intercourse and I am greatly concerned that he is going to get her pregnant.

What should I do about this?

Additional Details

He is not a homosexual, we have taught him from the bible and he has learned though our church that this is not in God's plan. I will not teach him about condoms, that is unacceptable, we have always taught him about abstinence and that is what God and his future wife expects from him.

I want to speak to our pastor about this but I am very afraid of what he would think we are teaching our son if he things we are allowing him to sneak a girl into his bedroom. That is clearly inappropriate and we are good parents, I am very afraid what he will think of us.
[/quote]


So, we have a woman who's son is clearly gay, yet because of what she believes she is refusing to talk to him about it or related issues and is more worried about what their pastor will think of them than the happiness of their son...

yay religion!

way2lazy2care, I have tried explaining this to you once before.

I think that most of us are against ignorance, not religion per-se. It is ignorance that causes horrible things in the world. There are ignorant atheists and there are ignorant religious people. People who are not slaves to logic and reason are apt to do anything because of sheer ideology.

A person who is a slave to logic and reason -- whose gods are logic and reason, if you will -- can be convinced that he is wrong. You can argue with that person and show him logically where his stance is flawed, and that person will have no choice but to change his stance.

A person -- any person -- who is not a slave to logic and reason is dangerous. Not because he necessarily intends evil, but because there can be no convincing him that he is wrong if he were to choose such a path.

How can you reason and use logic when talking to Osama Bin Laden? It wouldn't work, would it? Why wouldn't it work? Because he has an ideology that is not based on logic, reason, and observation. His ideology is based on an arbitrary belief system based on an arbitrary book and his arbitrary interpretation of it. As I said, it's not just the religious. You'd have no better luck arguing with Kim Jong-Il. Do you understand that these people can't be argued with for the same reason that you can't be argued with? Their minds won't be changed unless they choose to change their minds, exactly like your mind cannot be changed unless you decide to change it. Logic and reason have no power to persuade.

Science, on the other hand, being perhaps the most obvious example of using logic and reason as a source of Truth, does not share this characteristic. A scientist can believe firmly in something, and if evidence or reason leads to the contrary, the scientist is forced to change his mind. Even if the scientist loses sight of logic and reason and refuses to change his mind, the scientific community at large will realign its beliefs.

So if the problem is not specific to religion, why pick on the religious? Because religion is the most blatant and obvious example of this sort of ignorance. The majority of the world is religious, and that's a serious problem if you believe that the world will be a better place when people act according to logic and reason.

I don't think we're arguing that you are actively doing any harm to the world, but the fact is that if you believed you should -- if you believed god ordered you to -- there's no possible way we could change your mind.

Listen, extremist fundamentalism is bad. It is not religion's fault that extreme fundamentalism exists. Do I beat up people outside of abortion clinics? Do I call parents whose children just died in Iraq and tell them their kids are faggots that are burning in hell? I don't even believe in creationism. Should I be looked down on because some idiots happen to be vocal with their idiocy? Many of these people are also American. Many of them are also white. Should we think that all white people beat up people outside abortion clinics? Do all american's charge people's funerals to tell people the recently deceased were horrible people? Of course not. So why is it acceptable to blame religion the same way?

If you ran into a Sudanese person on the street would the first thought that jumped into your mind be, "He's a genocidal murderer," because of what happened in Darfur? Do you think all North Koreans are absolutely insane?

There are religious, scientific, and political extremists. Hell, there are even video game and technological extremists. There have been murders in the name of all of these. Are all of them inherently bad? Why only religion?

I agree that extreme fundamentalism is bad. The problem as I see it is that there's only supposed to be one way to interpret the Bible, and that is the literal way. It quite literally tells you to kill people who do certain things (such as homosexuals). If you don't believe that way, then why not? Are your morals more important than God's instructions?

Certainly not all Christians believe that way (thank goodness!). And not all homophobes are Christians. Generalizations are bad. I'd wager that only an extremely small fraction of Muslims believe that they should be killing Christians, even if the Quran tells them to (I have no idea if it really does), for example.

The problem though is that the Bible definitely does give people ammunition here, even without generalizing. It frustrates me every time I see someone post a comment online to the tone of, "Homosexuality is an abomination and God will destroy us if we let them marry!" They could have used a dozen other excuses ("It's unnatural!"), but religion was an overwhelming majority in all that I recall. If the Bible never said anything about homosexuality then at least they wouldn't be able to use their religion as an excuse against it, and at best perhaps some of them might even believe homosexuality wasn't a horrible thing.

In my experience at least, religion is particularly bad at this because it holds a lot of baggage. If someone wants to be a Christian so they don't burn in Hell, they also suddenly have to condemn homosexuality, even if they have no problem with it personally. And unlike politics or science, if they believe the Bible they'll feel that they have to enforce all of these other rules, or suffer a fate much worse than anything any man can do to you in the name of politics or science.

With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.[/font]

My counter argument would be that the latter 'good people' are not 'good people'. Doing evil in the name of religion does not make them in line with what the religion teaches.
[/quote]

I'd argue the same in most situations, but let's pose a hypothetical circumstance: let's say that someone does kill someone else because they're a homosexual, and they did it because the Bible told them to. That would be going in line with what the religion teaches and would be evil in my book.

I think that most of us are against ignorance, not religion per-se. It is ignorance that causes horrible things in the world. There are ignorant atheists and there are ignorant religious people. People who are not slaves to logic and reason are apt to do anything because of sheer ideology.

A person who is a slave to logic and reason -- whose gods are logic and reason, if you will -- can be convinced that he is wrong. You can argue with that person and show him logically where his stance is flawed, and that person will have no choice but to change his stance.
...
Science, on the other hand, being perhaps the most obvious example of using logic and reason as a source of Truth, does not share this characteristic. A scientist can believe firmly in something, and if evidence or reason leads to the contrary, the scientist is forced to change his mind. Even if the scientist loses sight of logic and reason and refuses to change his mind, the scientific community at large will realign its beliefs.

So if the problem is not specific to religion, why pick on the religious? Because religion is the most blatant and obvious example of this sort of ignorance.

History is filled with scientists who have had their lives ruined by other scientists because they presented controversial, though correct, theories.

edit: to save space putting this here:

[quote name='Steven Weinberg']
[font="sans-serif"]With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion.[/font]

My counter argument would be that the latter 'good people' are not 'good people'. Doing evil in the name of religion does not make them in line with what the religion teaches.
[/quote]

The problem is nailing down WHAT a religion teaches; because if it was easy then you'd all believe the same thing in your respective beliefs. Yet, there are multiple takes on even Christianity which differ wildly in what they think is right.

Even something as simple as 'who gets into heaven and how' isn't simple as the verses posted on a previous page say ('only via jesus' yet 'judged on what you do' later...).

It's all very well saying "well, they are wrong..." yet apprently they found something in the teachings to back their point of view while you have found something which backs your own. Which of you is 'right'?

Same thing with people who kill people and say 'god told me to do it'; if you accept god exists then maybe god DID tell them to do it? Their belief is just as valid as someone elses; you claim to have 'heard the word of god', maybe they did to?

(Fortunately we live in a world where 'god told me to do it' isn't a valid defense...)

History is filled with scientists who have had their lives ruined by other scientists because they presented controversial, though correct, theories.

What's your point? Are you talking about when they had their lives ruined because of the intolerance of the religious community surrounding them?

Tell us what your point is by saying that statement, and then gives us some examples to back it up.

And is that really all you can think of in response to all I had to say ?

I agree that extreme fundamentalism is bad. The problem as I see it is that there's only supposed to be one way to interpret the Bible, and that is the literal way. It quite literally tells you to kill people who do certain things (such as homosexuals). If you don't believe that way, then why not? Are your morals more important than God's instructions?

http://www.ccmlinks.com/posts.php?id=467

this says pretty much what I'd say anyway, so I'll just post it. The above in mind it kind of answers your question below, as I would still consider them evil.

[quote name='Telgin' timestamp='1311863464' post='4841602']
I agree that extreme fundamentalism is bad. The problem as I see it is that there's only supposed to be one way to interpret the Bible, and that is the literal way. It quite literally tells you to kill people who do certain things (such as homosexuals). If you don't believe that way, then why not? Are your morals more important than God's instructions?

http://www.ccmlinks....osts.php?id=467

this says pretty much what I'd say anyway, so I'll just post it. The above in mind it kind of answers your question below, as I would still consider them evil.
[/quote]

This is actually something that I wish was absolutely clear in the Bible, and to me at least, despite what the author in the link claims, is not clear. The quote from Jesus about how He fulfilled the law, not abolished it casts doubt on the whole situation, even after I read the explanation in the comments. I can't imagine why He'd say that if He didn't intend for the law to continue.

Anyway, maybe He did abolish the law (or it never applied to anyone but the Jews). If that's so, then what rules should we follow? There are still things in the New Testament that go against my beliefs of right and wrong (though far fewer). Should women be allowed to teach in the church for example?

Either way at least we agree that killing people because the Old Testament tells us to is wrong.

The problem is nailing down WHAT a religion teaches; because if it was easy then you'd all believe the same thing in your respective beliefs. Yet, there are multiple takes on even Christianity which differ wildly in what they think is right.

In the case of Christianity the basics are really quite simple. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. The rest is secondary.

What's your point? Are you talking about when they had their lives ruined because of the intolerance of the religious community surrounding them?

Tell us what your point is by saying that statement, and then gives us some examples to back it up.

science:
http://amasci.com/weird/vindac.html
http://amasci.com/fr...g/arrhenus.html
http://amasci.com/weird/globe.txt
http://amasci.com/weird/stmlaf.html
http://amasci.com/freenrg/evolv.txt

Politics:
China and Russia killed close to 100,000,000 people in the 20th century alone for purely political reasons.
Socrates was tried and killed for his political standing.

Video games:
http://blog.clevelan...hot_dad_ov.html
http://articles.nyda...d-apartment-boy

And is that really all you can think of in response to all I had to say ?
[/quote]
What else is there to say?

So if the problem is not specific to religion, why pick on the religious? Because religion is the most blatant and obvious example of this sort of ignorance. The majority of the world is religious, and that's a serious problem if you believe that the world will be a better place when people act according to logic and reason.[/quote]
You pretty much come out and say in this paragraph that:
1. You hold religious people to a different standard.
2. That the majority of the world being religious is a problem.
3. That religion is somehow counter to logic and reason, when there are plenty of people who's religious beliefs are perfectly consistent with logic and known science.

I'm not sure what kind of reply you'd like formed against that other than me saying, "you're showing your bias," again.